50% success rate continues...

[bevanjon74]

Hi forumites...

I have been AG brewing for about 5 months now, and have had mixed results.. when its good its fab, and when its bad its horrid...

I have had roughly 50% of my brews go t*ts up with problems of fermenting at too high a temp (and it took me a while to work this one out) and 50% have turned out great..

I thought I had solved my main problem, a horrid germaline like taste in the beers that have gone wrong, when I found a cooler place in the house to ferment, but having taken a sample for gravity of my latest brew (a pendle witch clone) the taste is back.. now I know for a fact that it has not been fermented too warm as I have a thermometre in the room with the brew and if anything its been on the cool side (18 degrees or so)

It may be my taste buds, as I am always scared that "that taste" may be in my beer and am "looking for it" so to speak.. but I am sure its there in this one.
It doesn't dissapear with time either as I barrelled one batch and left it, thinking it may go away - and it was worse when I drank it later...

Its not a taste that makes you go "yack" immediately, and spit the beer out.. its like a hint of germaline.. so not great in a beer

any ideas what the feck might be ruining every other brew...... my wife has commented "you only have success with about half, were the kits not better?" - so I'm worrried the home brew budget will be cut by SWMBO if I can;t get this right...

Oh forum, save this brewer!!!!

BJ74

[Whorst]

What exactly is a "germaline like taste?"

Three things to look at.

1. Be sure your equipment is sanitary.
2. Is your water profile acceptable for the style of beers you're brewing?
3. Mash pH. See number 2.

Strange tastes are usually related to yeast. Harsh, husky, grainy flavors can be attributed to mash pH.
I'd like to see your recipe. I'd recommend taking notes on everything you do. Brew multiple same batches
to see if you can get any kind of consistency.

[Brownster]

My mates first brew had a strange tcp like aftertaste to it, not present initially but as you finish a mouthful you got this taste, could yours be the same? All I could think of was somehow he's got traces of steriliser in the fermenter or the bottling barrel, he uses a typical chlorine based cleaner.
I use thin bleach dilution here with no problems so far though I rinse at least 3 times, more for the hell of it sometimes

We are doing another brew this weekend so I'm really hoping for success this time for him!

[flything]

Are you filtering your water and using a crushed half campden tablet to drive of chlorine/chloramine? My early brews had a chemically taste until I did that.

Try using bottled water (Asda Smartprice) for your next brew, it's almost ideal for brewing and you can then tell whether your water is the problem, also, rinse really well after cleaning and then use a non-rinse santiser (idophor or star san) in the proper concentrations and you can be pretty liberal with applying it and you don't have to fret about whether rinsing is causing an infection.

The other thing would be to make sure you're not using an non food safe plastics, garden hose etc as these whilst probably not life-threatening can contribute nasty flavours.

[Philipek]

I have a similar problem. I think we may have crossed paths before on this off-taste subject.

It was identified by two beer judges as phenolics. "What causes that?" I asked. Apparently everything: high fermentation temperatures, chlorinated water, wild yeast infection. It was deemed to be wild yeast in mine as the beer was cloudy - they don't drop down like the good yeast. I replaced all my transfer stuff, still there. I intensified an already paranoid sanitation routine, off-taste still there. Finally, I went after the fermentation temperature, and with my low tech equipment, as far as I could, made sure the beer fermented at around 18degrees C. The off-taste was still there.

This is very disheartening because all-grain is supposed to taste better than commercial beer, even if you're a bit cackhanded, and mine tastes worse. Also, a homebrewer who lives nearby and has been brewing for over 15 years said that infections very rarely happen and he's only had one in his brewing career. I also read a thread on another forum that detailed all the silly mistakes people made with beer without getting infections and here I am with a superb sanitation and infected beer. My past 5 batches, despite my best efforts, have had this off taste and it's making good beer seem like the holy grail.

My last action before I give up this whole enterprise as a bad idea is to chuck away my FV and get a new one. It's a carboy, and I've been led to believe that they were easy to sanitize, but I read a post where someone had a bad carboy, and my cleaning stuff left a film on the inside of the carboy which revealed a four inch band from the bottom to the shoulder of the carboy of tiny little scratches, previously invisible on the shiny glass.

If you've checked out all the other suspects - water, mash PH, fermentation temp - have a look at your equipment. You may have an infected FV or tube, so kits wouldn't be better. I also read somewhere about a guy who washed and sanitized everything but still got infected batches until he took apart a racking cane and tubing and found a tiny bit of decomposing hop debris in the join.

I wish you luck in your endeavour.

[bevanjon74]

Thanks Flything, brownster and whorst for your input on this, its greatly appreciated...

PhilipeK - Yes we have chatted on this before and we both thought it was fermenting temp... weird isn't it how we both have the same issue!!

To (sort of) answer the questions in order:
- The "Germaline taste" - its kind of medicinal, like TCP but not as harsh
- definately not a malty taste, but will check mash PH - this is something I have not done before (people on here mentioned it wasn't absolutely necessary on my first few outings - but will do now so I can tick this bit off as not the cause)
- receipe was that for Moorhouse's Pendle witch from DW book, can anyone let me know if its ok to post it up here? (copyright?)
- I rinsed like a fecker to make sure there was no thin bleach solution left in the FV - but this could be a cause. It is definately as you finish a mouthful. May be a good idea to try a non rinse sanitiser. any tips on the best one, and where to buy from?
- Always used a crushed campden for the water. But will go and get smartprice water for my next brew and this will give me a "control" for the brew.
- Using food safe tubing etc so can't be that. (at least one thing is ticked off ) )

The wort always tastes ok before it goes in the fv.. so it could be at this stage when it goes astray...

If I have an infected FV (is this possible for something to linger even after sanitising?) - should I just chuck it and get a new one? Or is there an alternative - like a massively strong clean that would get it back to normal???

Its a bugger because my very first brew (ie the one where I thought I would make more mistakes than ever) was fabulous so I have "seen the light" - but I want to get back to that level!!!

So the suggestion for the next brew should be smart price water, new or mega cleaned FV, no rinse sanitiser, new tubing maybe?

What do you reckon?
BJ74

[Whorst]

I leave my fermenter in the bathtub filled with Iodophor and water. Everything gets sanitized with that solution. Racking cane, stainless steel oxygen wand, etc. With fermentation starting fast, the chances of infection are minimized. What are your lag times? Meaning, how long does it take before you see signs of fermentation? This is critical, because if you do have something nasty, a long lag time will enable the nasty stuff to spread like wildfire. My guess is you've picked up something through your process, or the bleach is reeking havoc with your yeast. It doesn't take much, as bleach is powerful.

[flything]

BJCP faults guide is worth looking at:

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/Beer_faults.pdf

Plastic fementors and tubing is quite easily scratched (although if looked after it it can be fine for years), sanitisers can't get under dirt that is in a scratch, but that scratch could be harbouring bacteria, as whorst has suggested reducing lag time (liquid yeast made into a proper sized starter is probably better than dried yeast in this respect) will reduce the impact of this but replacement of the damaged kit is the only way to get rid of it completely. Plastic buckets and tubing are pretty cheap given the amount of effort that goes into a batch of beer.

[Brownster]

Comparing notes on your problem and my mates last brew, we also tasted the wort as it went into the FV and it was fine too.
I always think rinsing a 5 gallon FV properly is no easy task, do you fill it completely to the brim 3 times or do you put so much in and swill around in which case is it possible not every part is getting rinsed properly?
I use a shower hose on the taps so I can direct the water around and around the whole bin each rinse cycle, and I do rinse the FV 4 or 5 times even!
Perhaps a no-rinse sanitiser would be good way to go? An alternative is a tip I picked up from wine making, as campden tablets are food safe and neutralise chlorines in tap water, you can make up a final rinse solution by crushing 6 campden tablets and dissolving into 500ml of water (reference CJJ Berry first steps in winemaking). Use this as a final rinse after your sanitising and rinsing of the FV and equipment. I used to do this with my brews initially but have since stopped doing it as I found it unnecessary but if you want a 'belt and braces' solution then I'd suggest it.
This link from the John Palmer website sheds some more light on the subject http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html
He suggests a final rinse with boiled water, so there you go!
I would also re-iterate what others have said about sterilizing, it will not in normal strengths / immersion times, remove dirt or heavy staining. Any visible marks or dirt would need removal using a different regime, stronger solution whatever, to get rid of and which if left, could harbor germs but I'm sure you have probably scrubbed it clean a million times by now!

[Philipek]

BJCP faults guide is worth looking at:

http://www.bjcp.org/docs/Beer_faults.pdf

Plastic fementors and tubing is quite easily scratched (although if looked after it it can be fine for years), sanitisers can't get under dirt that is in a scratch, but that scratch could be harbouring bacteria

I've read a few times of infected FVs that can withstand any amount of bleach, iodophor, starsan, whatever, and the only cure is to ditch the FV and get a new one. Particularly the plastic buckets, but once I heard of an infected glass carboy, so this route is my last best hope of good beer. If you want to outrun an infection in terms of lag time, you could make a flying starter with the dry yeast. I've done that a few times and the beer is bubbling away in 4-8 hours. Mind you, I still get the off-flavours.

I'd say chuck the fermenter. You don't want to test various remedies on 25 litres of beer and a day's work all-grain brewing. I'm also changing to Starsan (it breaks down into yeast nutrients) and bottled water, with the change in fermenter.

Like you my first batches were really good. Due to the strange way I got into homebrewing, I went straight to all-grain, so my first two brews were wildly cack-handed. Yet, they were amazingly delicious. A friend said, in all seriousness, that it was the best beer he'd ever tasted.

The germaline/tcp thing sounds a lot like the North American identification of 'bandaids' ie medicinal, and that's phenolics. As I said in a previous post, an irritatingly large number of factors can cause phenolics. Is your beer slightly hazy? Apparently that would indicate interloper yeasts (among other things). I've never smelled bandaids and it's been a long time since I've had a whiff of TCP or germaline, I describe my off aroma as strangely sweet.

I said to the wife that if changing the FV doesn't work, I'll probably jack the hobby in (though probably not TC). Her response was interesting seeing as she doesn't drink anything but water and hates the taste of alcohol and beer. She seemed disappointed and encouraged me to carry on. I think she sees the almost spiritual importance of beer in my life. That's why I married her.

[flything]

If I can make beer, anyone can, and given the brew day I'm currently in the middle of, if this turns out drinkable then I would take that as final and unequivocale proof that there is a diety of some kind out there.

I spent ages trying to make bread, it wouldn't work for some reason, then, all of a sudden it started working, now I can make bread by just throwing the ingredients together, I can't explain why it didn't work and now it does!

[Philipek]

f I can make beer, anyone can,

The beer gods favour you. I have somehow sinned against them somehow, probably pride, and now they are punishing me, and their punishment is just, and I will bear it with humility.

As for you bread, the bread gods weren't impressed with you in the beginning, but you obviously inadvertently propitiated them.

[flything]

I think the message is don't give up, I suspect that there is quite a reluctance to admit that not all home brew is better than Greene King IPA, which whilst disappointing, is inevitable given the randomness and variability inherent in 'homebrew'. That said, it is not that difficult to make beer that is better than the commercial examples, trust me, you will do it and then stand there gobsmacked at your own genius.

[bevanjon74]

Guys - thank you soo much for all your input on this
I am going to go with the following:
New FV
Bottled Water
Starsan

And then we shall see - I can't get much wrong with the above changes and hopefully I'll be back on the road to a drinkable brew!

I will have one last check of the pendle witch today (in the vain hope that it may have suddenly got better!) so spare a thought for me as I will then probably be tipping 40 pints of what would have been a nice Halloweeny brew down the drain..

I'll let you know the progress of the next brew...

Dont give up PhilipeK - we'll get through this together! ) - we will both be toasting our success with a lovely home brewed pint in the near future I know it!

BJ74

[Deebee]

I suppose you could get a new FV a plastic one perhaps.

I use a powdered cleanser, ( let me have your address and i'll send you a pck to see if it helps)

Lastly i guess it would be best for you to maybe brew with someone and let them see what you are doing. Maybe they will see something that could be the cause?

Good luck, hang in there.