water treatment help - leamington spa brewer

[subfaction]

Hi Guys,

I'm planning AG#3 and think it's time to consider upping the water treatment from just half a campden tablet to a more scientific approach. But after looking at my water report and reading the guide on the site I'm a bit lost on what to put into the GW Calc.
I'm based in Leamington Spa, with ST Water.

I'm after what I'd need to do/add for standard pale ales, porters and stouts.
If anyone can advise along the lines of, just chuck x of y into the mash it would make me very happy

Here's what my report says:

Analysis Typical Value UK/European Limit Units
Hardness Level Very Hard No Standard Applies
Hardness Clark 25 No Standard Applies Degrees Clark
Hardness French 36 No Standard Applies French Degrees
Hardness German 20 No Standard Applies German Degrees
Aluminium 6 200 μgAl/l
Chloride 250 mgCl/l
Chlorine 0.46 No Standard Applies mg/l
Coliform bacteria 0 0 no./100ml
Colour 0.62 20 mg/l Pt/Co
Conductivity 868.19 2500 μS/cm at 20°C
E.coli bacteria 0 0 no./100ml
Fluoride 0.79 1.5 mgF/l
Iron 31.31 200 μgFe/l
Manganese 1.93 50 μgMn/l
Nitrate 18.4 50 mgNO3/l
Odour 0 Acceptable to customers and no abnormal change Dilution Number
Pesticides 0 0.5 μg/l
pH 7.4 6.5 - 9.5 pH Value
Sodium 54.88 200 mgNa/l
Taste 0 Acceptable to customers and no abnormal change Dilution Number
Plumbing Metals
Copper 0.02 2 mgCu/l
Lead 2 25 μgPb/l
Nickel 2.44 20 μgNi/l

[fisherman]

Hello,
I think what you need is a Salifert Alkalinity test kit off e- bay, or pop over to my place in Coventry with a water sample and I will test it for you .When you know your akalinity you can then make additions you will still need a test kit to check on your water before brewdays. Have a good read on the Brupacks site under information water treatment.

[fisherman]

I am supplied by ST also and my supply is Stonleigh, Kirby and Stivical area on ST websitel. the water comes via Worcester.

[Eric]

That data doesn't contain what you really need to know to make a meaningful judgement.
Your water is very hard and likely contains much of the calcium needed for brewing, but you should learn how alkaline it is before deciding what to add. As already advised, this can be done using a Salifert or similar kit to measure alkalinity in terms of mg/litre which can, if necessary, be modified to a desirable level.
Does limescale collect in your kettle or around taps? If so, an alkalinity test should be your next step, or boil your liquor and decant it off the sedimented salts before adding a teaspoon or two of gypsum to the mash until you have a better idea of what your water contains.

[subfaction]

Thanks Guys, I'll get hold of a test kit, as we get quite bad limescale build up on appliances.
Just wondering, if there's any common taste issues caused by my type of very hard water, it would be great to know what to look for as flaws in my current non-treated brews.

[Eric]

Buy yourself some CRS while you're on, to reduce the alkalinity of your water.

Minerals in brewing water can and will generally have significant influence on the taste of the final product. These will not be flaws, merely characteristics of your beer.

Taste is very subjective and quite controversial and some brewers won't stop their endeavours until they've removed it altogether.

[subfaction]

Hi Guys,
In a typical last minute fashion, I've ordered a test kit, but it hasn't arrived in time for my Sunday brewday. DOh!
I do however have gypsum, epson, DLS and CRS.
So armed with my water report, I figure this as the treatment:

Based on the following into the GW calc, selecting the burton profile (for a hoppy pale ale - a summer lightning recipe)

hardness - 357.5 ppm (mg CaCO3/l)
calcium - ?
magnesium - ?
sodium - 54.88 mgNa/l
carbonate - ?
sulphate - 150.575 mg/l
Chloride - 105.425 mg/l
pH - 7.40

(total water to treat: 36.2l)
add 65.2ml of CRS - leave to stand for 10mins, then add 1/2 a campden tablet.

I think that's correct, but I have no reading for Magnesium, and the cations are out of balance, they show 9.53, whilst anions are 13.25. If I add magnesium in the calc to balance the ions out it shows I don't need to add and epsom salts in. If I leave it as 0 Mg I need to add 5grams.

Not sure how to procede, can you more experienced chaps help me out?

cheers

Sub.

[themadhippy]

epson salts is basicly magnesium

[fisherman]

I dont think your alkalinity is 357 That is your total hardness, Forget all the other minerals for now it's very complex , I live less than 15 miles from you and I am supplied by severn trent via worcester my alkalinity is 97 so I use 0.37ml of CRS per litre and 0.9grms of dls per brewlentgh. I would not dose for 357.
I would not brew without knowing my alkalinty. But if you want to brew I would use 9ml CRS in 25 litres of brewing water and 22grms of DLS in 25 litres. 10 grms of DLS in the grist and 12grms added to the boil.
Good luck

[Eric]

I'd be very careful using CRS unless you know the amount of alkalinity you wish to neutralise. I believe nitric acid is better at getting the nickle off kettle elements than surplus CRS, but I'd not underestimate its power.
As said, Epsum Salts is magnesium sulphate and many people swear by it. I've read that sufficient magnesium exists in malt and shouldn't cause us practical concern.

[fisherman]

I had another look and it is total hardness 357 dont' use it for dosing with CRS or DLS for your brew . The missing number you need is carbonate = alkalinity. I got in touch with severn trent a few years ago, A waste of time.

[fisherman]

Your CRS for 36.2 litres would be 13 mls. 0.37 per litre

[subfaction]

Thanks for all the advice guys - Fisherman the leamington water is from "surface water treated at works in Warwickshire", so don't think we get the same stuff.
OK I'm pretty scared off doing much at all with CRS until I get the testing kit and can find out Alkalinity for sure.

I'd still like to do something to improve my basic water this sunday though.
What if I boil to remove carbonates, as per the GW book, so night before boil for 15mins with a teaspoon of gypsum, allow to cool, rack off sediment.
Then add another teaspoon of gypsum to the mash? What do you chaps think?

[Eric]

If your water is really hard you may have trouble getting the gypsum to dissolve.
Boiling for several minutes will likely reduce the carbonate down to 50 ppm, good enough.
Suggest you add a spoon of gypsum to the mash and another to the subsequent boil.
Much easier once you've got the testing kit.

[subfaction]

Hi Chaps,

I brewed my hoppy pale last sunday and followed the GW book method: added 10g gypsum, boiled before hand, cooled, racked off, scrubbed kettle, refilled, added 1g of epsom salts, & 1/2 campden to my mash liquor. I'll report back how it went when I've sampled it.

Onwards and upwards though, as it's brewday again tommorow...

Today my test kit arrived and the resultant alkalinity is 205 ppm as CaCo3, my water company called the same day to report an average of 152.31ppm (I've asked them to confirm what this was 'as' they will get back to me in 2-3 weeks with Mg average too), but I think i'll go with my new test result as I took it today.

Sticking this and the average readings from my water report into the GW calc:
Alkalinity: 205
Hardness: 357.5
Sodium: 54.88
Sulphate: 150.5
Chloride: 105.4
Magnesium: I have no reading for this, I'm assuming around 9 as that balances the cations and aions, is this a fair guess?

I'm brewing a BIAB fullers london porter clone tommorow, so chose the porter profile, giving treatment as:
CRS: 0.66ml/l
Sodium Chloride: 114.7 mg/l

Does this sound about right?