100L Brewery Design

[james1988]

Evening All,

The time has come to upgrade my home brewery. I have a couple of friends who want to brew with me so I'm looking at going to 100 litres. My current brewery was built by myself out of a 20ish liter coolbox, a 60 litre fermenting vessel that I've placed kettle elements and a hop strainer inside. The 60l FV acts as a HLT and boiler. With that in mind I'm thinking of the following design:

100L HLT
80L Mash Tun
100L Boiler with false bottom
2 x pump
PID Temperature Controller
Control Panel

The pump 1 will sit between the boiler and mash tun to underlet it and re-circulate the mash
Pump 2 will sit between the HLT and boiler in order to pump the wort to the boiler.

The control panel will control the heating elements for both the HLT and Boiler along with the 2 pumps.

Would you mind critiquing the design for me? I've pasted below an outline of the set up that I have drawn up in Libre Office.



Thanks very much,
James

I plan to build a control panel to control the pumps, HLT and

[Haydnexport]

I think you have over complicated it a bit , and im not sure why you'd want to pump from mt to the hlt again. I have a similar system , although 50l , (i have all components to build 100l system as soon as i finish the brewing shed / brewery first). And i plan to use the same setup with pumps , i have 3 pumps in use but 3rd is for pumping boiler through a counterflow so could be left out.

I have one pump recirculating the hlt to ensure even temps and this pump also feeds the mt when it gets to strike temp and batch sparging. i have a seperate pump then to recirculate mash and to transfer wort to boiler after mash and batch sparging. Depending on how you chill you could use a pump or not to recirculate the post boil wort for clarity through the false bottom and hops , either using a immersion chiller and whirlpool or quick recirculate and direct pump through counterflow / plate chiller to the fv. Could do it with one/2 pumps but i got great deals on 3 very good ones so it was less faffing around. Bearing in mind im no expert and rubbish at explaining things i could well be wrong !

[james1988]

I'm not sure either on the pump from the mash tun to HLT to be honest. I was thinking on the lines of mash tun to HLT then HLT to boiler.

I currently sparge to fermenting buckets and then tip them into the boiler but shifting 100l of boiling liquid seems a bit precarious so I was thinking of sparging to HLT (in place of the FV) and then pumping it to the boiler or I could continue sparging to an FV and then pump that to the boiler.

Another thought that has crossed my mind is to make dual use of the HLT as a HLT and boiler just as I do now.

I really have no idea which way to go really!

[Haydnexport]

Its hlt - mash tun, mash tun - boiler , boiler - fv is the way you want to be looking at. all your strike/ sparge water will come from the hlt and wont go anywhere but the mash tun. All mash will be transfered to the boiler either directly or after recirculating. and from boiler only place it will be going is fv again either directly or after recirc or counter flow chiller / plate chiller.

Orlando the moderator has a sweet setup very similar to what you want to do (as are many forum members im sure but he's the only name i can remember off the top of my head) , im sure he'll explain / post a picture or 2 when he sees this, as my gear is all packed away in conservatory while im dawdling with my brewshed !

[Kev888]

Yes, simple is often best IMO. Traditionally the vessels would have been tiered and gravity would take the liquid in sequence from left to right in your diagram, so it can be very simple indeed. The pumps could follow the same pattern but just let you have things at a convenient level. However complication may be worthwhile if you wanted to recirculate the mash in say a rims or herms setup, and it can also be useful to recirculate the mash tun back into itself to clear the wort before running off to the boiler.

You will have to decide between valves and fixed pipework, vs moveable flexible (ideally silicone) hoses - or some combination. Personally I'm in the hose camp because there is less to clean and I find getting vales in the right place easier to mess up. It can make priming the pumps/removing airlocks easier too. But some prefer the neatness of fixed pipework and it can work well, but make sure theres some suitable way to clean it.

You may want to think about pumping to the FV, unless you are intending to split the batch into smaller liftable fermenters or cubes. It can be a pain unless you have a pump that is capable of being sterilized by boiling wort, but it lets you have the FV higher up, making racking possible without having to move/disturb it after settling. A pump can also make the use of CFCs and plate chillers easier should you wish, though I'm presuming the current plans intend an IC.

[Fil]

Where will the brewery live? whats the table space available, 2 vessels will have a smaller footprint, and with a few jerrycans or similar to drain the mash and sparge into makes a HLT a bit of an unnecessary luxury. I went 3v 100/80/100 and find the HLT is pretty redundant especially as my table top fits 2 pots well..

A FB in the kettle can be problematic with electric element heating. if installed above the elements it will need anchoring in place to avoid the boil lifting it and breaking the edge seal.

mounted below the elements and it can create a cold trap isolating a volume of liquor from the turbulance of the boil.

a garth style filter (large bottom hugging mesh envelope, drained from within) can have a greater surface area than a FB and is a popular option, for my build i went hop spider, with a suitably rated pump you can simply recirculate the boil through a hop spider to eliminate any utilisation worries ..

if using electric dont skimp on kettle elements i went for Mrlards 100% SS LWD specialist elements, for the hlt recycled budget kettle elements are all thats needed (you cant scorch water hehe)

I use lil brown solar pumps i attach to my valve outlets and then attach camlock male fittings and then hook up to underlet the tun and sparge with female camlock terminated Silicone hoses. I use a larger 19mm ID silicone tube and to avoid the constricting effect of hosetail fittings I use 1/2" bsp threaded weld nipples to screw into my hose teminating fittings which can then be secured with a jubilee clip to the large bore hose thus providing a full bore transfer hose..

Using a hop spider means no hop debris in the kettle so the major problem remaining is that of deadspace, This i overcame by using a 1/2" SS elbow fitting to create an internal side siphon withe the elbow open mouth hovering circa 1mm off the kettle base so deadspace is just a few ml with a gentle forward tip..

[simon12]

1 Solution you could consider to use a HLT/boiler combined is when the mash starts heat the sparge water higher than it needs to be (you will have to find out how much it looses by testing but exact sparge temp isn't to important) then move it to the fermenter where it will loose the excess heat. Then sparge from the fermenter into the HLT/boiler. It has the advantage of loosing 1 vessel and partially sterilising the fermenter.

[james1988]

Thanks all. I'll read through and reply tonight, it's been a bit of a manic week.

[Bunglebrewsbeer]

I'm going 100l I think soon. Will keep having a nosey at this.


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[james1988]

Thanks all for the informative replies, today is the first time I've had time to myself where I can digest them properly. It looks like this project is going to be put on the back burner for the time being while I suss out whether the friends who have said they want to get involved really want to get involved.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

James

[Fil]

before the plunge, let me just comment that if you like brewing doubling or trippling your output can result in less brewing....

[james1988]

Evening All,

After many months of consideration there's every possibility in the next few weeks that I'm going to be brewing to supply a local pub. I'll shortly be sending off my application to HMRC but before doing so I'll need to build a brew shed and a larger scale brewery - I've just moved from a three vessel system I built to a grain father! This new set up will need to handle two firkins at a time (another pub local to me has stated the minimum amount they'll take is a firkin), so with that in mind, how does this set up sound?

HLT / Boiler
1 x 100L High End Brew Pot
1 x 12" Bazooka Filter
2 x 2.4KW Kettle element
1 x 2 Piece Ball Valve 1/2" BSP -
1 x HLT Temperature Control
1 x FO Immersion chiller

Mash Tun
1 x 80L Insulated Thermos Pots
1 x 12" Domed False bottom
1 x Mash tun bottom drain 3 Piece tap kit

FV
2 x 50L Flat Bottom FV

Other
1 x Mini Pump
2 x Brew Fridges

Any words of wisdom, brewery redesign or pointers to other equipment that would be essential is welcomed. All will be ordered from Brew Builder.

James

Edit
Further to the above, does anybody have any experience of brewing 20L on a 100L kit? I'm thinking of selling the Grainfather to put some money towards this but if the efficiency will drop through the floor because of the size of the vessels, I'll keep hold of it.

[RobP]

Have you found this site?
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/

I think you will run into trouble with HMRC if you home brew on equipment designated for pro brewing.

[james1988]

Evening Rob,

I should have made myself a bit clearer. I was considering the scenario where the brewery doesn't take off and I end up with the situation where I have a brewery that is oversized for what I require (in the event that I couldn't shift it), I'm in total agreement with you in relation to HMRC not being too pleased so it's not an avenue I'm even considering going down.

I'll have a look at that link tonight as it may answer some of my questions.

James

[Kev888]

Just some random thoughts:
Assuming a firkin is 9 gallons or about 41 litres then the brewing pot sizes you suggest seem more than adequate. At 41L plus losses to sediment/deadspace/dry-hops, the 50L FVs will likely need blow-off tubes - unless the 50L is working capacity rather than total capacity? With no bright tanks, I presume you've checked two FVs will be enough for your turnover.

Personally I would choose a more industrial and lower watt-density type of elements, especially if this kit may be used heavily. e.g some of Brewbuilder's or at a pinch domestic immersion elements (though these are harder to fit). Not sure if you'd need to consider H&S if going semi-commercial, some of the electrical things homebrewers do for themselves verge on being bodges, and may not be appropriate - inadequate IP ratings and the like.

If you're going for an IC, then make sure it is a big one; they can struggle with larger volumes in summer. The extra time they can take is to some extent repaid with easier cleaning though. I presume that if you're selling the produce, you may have to comply with hygiene requirements throughout the design of the rig, and probably its environment too.

I don't see the firkins on your list, or hoses, hygienic couplings and that kind of thing. Make sure the electrics and water supply and drains are suitable - bigger volumes are tedious if you need to carry water around etc. As a semi-commercial venture, then in addition to registering for tax, there could be planning approvals needed and restrictions on smells and dumping waste into the drains. I may be wrong, but IIRC if you register as commercial, even your homebrewing may be due for tax if done on the same premises.

It is possible to brew 20L in a 100l rig; I sometimes did this on my old one. You need to have the kettle elements low down to be effective and to minimise dead-space as this has a proportionally bigger impact on efficiency. BUT it isn't really very nice; a big setup is a lot more unwieldy and only really justifies that extra awkwardness with the bigger volumes. So I would advise not disposing of the smaller setup unless you need to, it may also be useful for testing new recipes.