Finings and dry hopping

[Kev888]

See my Brewdog link in the edit above for pics of their pre and post 5-6micron filtering.

Superb, thanks for that Scooby, I'd not noticed the link and it pretty much answers what I wanted to know about filtration.

I think they have a slightly different opinion to me on what counts as slightly cloudy; thats more than good enough for me, so 5-6 microns is the finest I'll ever need to try. If the flavour and mouthfeel are still there (though obviously they would say that) and theres a bit of yeast sneaking through I'd be happy.

So somewhere between that and 10micron as an upper limit probably - that must still be doing 'something' visibly useful if the americans bother doing it.

Cheers
Kev

[pantsmachine]

Found this, may be of interest to some?

I don't intend to go into great detail about what causes haze and what the different kinds are; you can refer to a number of recently published articles and/or homebrewing texts for that information (see references above). The important thing to note in this context is that filtering to 5.0 microns will remove most of the yeast; filtering to 1.0 microns will remove many haze causing particles in your beer; filtering to 0.5 microns will remove nearly all chill haze causing proteins as well. Filtering below 0.5 microns can have detrimental effects on your beer, as many of the vital components of the body, flavor and head will be removed. I'd encourage you to experiment with different micron ratings and see which you like best; I personally can't taste any difference in unfiltered beer and beer filtered to 0.5 microns.

http://hbd.org/mtippin/filter.html

[darkonnis]

now that looks interesting, a combination of finings and filtering seems like a very realistic approach to getting a solid "commercial" looking beer. Would take some experimentation but by filtering down to between 5 and 10 microns you could see which gives you that typical haze/crap in the bottom and slowly tighten it from there. A balance between carbonation and sediment, as I was under the impression you can't force carbonate bottles, atleast not easily?

[Scooby]

But you can bottle force carbonated beer.

[orlando]

I can't help feeling aesthetics and technology is getting in the way of technique and flavour. I don't see chill haze as a problem at all in an Ale as I wouldn't dream of drinking something I have busted a gut to get as much flavour into it as possible, to then be ruined by chilling it to a point where the taste is severely impaired. I haven't brewed lager so I can't comment on this. But the brewing "tradition" of the USA with its very light coloured beers has driven a desire for a "clinical" appearance. If aesthetics drives the end result then as long as these are sought through better technique you could avoid the problem in the first place. Ultimately I would rather drink a flavour filled beer with a slight haze than the reverse. I was listeneing to Gordon Stong on this point and he was saying that appearance scores 3 points in competition so maximum points but only 6 out of 20 for flavour should have you revising your goal.

[guypettigrew]

now that looks interesting, a combination of finings and filtering seems like a very realistic approach to getting a solid "commercial" looking beer. Would take some experimentation but by filtering down to between 5 and 10 microns you could see which gives you that typical haze/crap in the bottom and slowly tighten it from there. A balance between carbonation and sediment, as I was under the impression you can't force carbonate bottles, at least not easily?

NO, NO, NO, NO. And again, NO.

Good commercial real ales are crystal clear. Or, as Fisherman would say, gin clear.

They are not filtered. There's no need.

Ales will clear well if brewed properly and left long enough to settle. If you want a fast beer, use finings.

My ale is sparkling clear within 48-72 hours once fined. No need for filtering.

Sorry darkonnis, but you're heading up a blind alley here.

Guy

[Scooby]

Good ale tastes great whether it's real or not, clear or not and whether commercial craft brewed or home brewed. In my experience
75% or more of commercial 'real' ale is mediocre even if 'gin clear"

I agree with orlando, but I don't see anything wrong with experimenting to end up with a product you feel proud to serve up.

[darkonnis]

hang on a second, I thought this was a conversation which had gone from finnings, in which we agreed worked well. Then someone brought up filtering and having read the link which is about filtering to produce clear bear without affecting taste, I thought that was what we were talking about. forgive me if i've read that wrong but that was my understanding. The link and accompanying post makes no reference to usings finnings only fiters hence my reply.

Whilst I agree, and I do, most commercial ales are half assed boring crap and mediocre at best, I cannot help but think however that clear is the way forward. May not taste different, may not feel different, but cloudy pints which I intended to be clear mar the hard work that went in to them. I personally don't need a clinical finish, but being able to achieve one should I want one would be nice. I notice when i go to the pub though, if a cloudy pint is poured (consistently cloudy) we won't be staying for more than that pint. Like it or not, Aesthetics are a big part of everything we do and beer is no exception.
Chill haze? If i'm questioning it, it means i've never noticed before, but i do notice when I can't pour an entire bottle due to having some crap in it, of course finnings will sort that out left long enough but time isn't a luxury I always have, there must be an alternative.

[pantsmachine]

Well said, do your own thing! Chill haze is caused by a room temperature beer which would be clear to the eye being chilled down and proteins showing in the beer. Its not cloudy just hazy. I’m not that into clarification for its own aesthetic sake so don’t take any real notice of a bit of chill haze.

Personally, i do chill my beers down to cold but then again i over compensate in my hops during brewing so there’s always plenty hop presence in my beers and if i want the full boom of the beer i let it warm up a bit in the glass.

Although just for experimentation I think i'll try a 5 micorn filter in hopthang(10” water filter housing) and see whats what. Purely for test purposes and to increase my knowledge as i find that a couple of weeks in the FV give me a clear enough beer.

[darkonnis]

I remember reading somewhere that the hard limit on how much you can brew is the amount of FV's you have, which of course makes sense. I think if nothing else I'll look at how cost effective filtering is, and if its cheap i'll experiment myself. unfortuntely i have other things to spend my money on at the minute or could spend my money on so if its a reasonably cheap affair ill do it soon otherwise ill have to chuck it on the back burner and follow your progress.

[kebabman]

I recently put some finings in a guiness clone i did, despite the small amount of roast barley completely overpowering everything in the recipe (G.Wheeler didnt get that one right).

Graham Wheeler's recipe in my book is the 7:2:1 ratio of malt to flaked barley to roast which is bang on, but then it is just Dave Line's malt bill reproduced.

[darkonnis]

Aye, well I do believe thats the one i followed however, It just taste of roast ash. It went relatively well that brew too, had a bit too much because my boiler cut out but i just added dextrose to the mix to get my gravity up (with it only being 4% I couldnt afford to lose any). My last 2 brews have been pretty much on the money, so I am dubious it was my methods. Not ruling it out, but considering I can only taste one thing, that isn't good. Doesn't taste anything like guiness, I'll see, it might calm down if left for a bit. If not I'll likely give it away or just toss it.

[Kev888]

Found this, may be of interest to some? http://hbd.org/mtippin/filter.html

It is - more to digest, many thanks! Thanks for the summary too.

Yes, the thread was about finings and this then (most usefully) progressed to filtering as that was 'also' a way of achieving what I was interested in. To clarify though (see what i did there ), with either method I'm NOT interested in putting aesthetics ahead here: I would 'like' the beer clearer and am interested to see if removing stuff could help long term stability, but I'm not willing to detectably sacrifice flavour or mouthfeel. It seems likely that with care, and not taking things to extremes, there may be a way to have at least some of my cake and eat it.

Anyway, I tried aux finings in the brew that I kegged last night, and it was considerably clearer than normal from the FV. So that was quick and easy and looks very potential - hopefully it'll brighten up more/quicker than normal in the corny now too. Its also cloudy 'enough' that I'm sure there'll be no worry about it still conditioning, its a bit too new to really judge flavour, but it wasn't lacking and the body is still all there - there didn't seem to be as much hop aroma as normal from the dry hopping but that could be the hops I used (not sure as yet). I'll have to investigate filtering and equipment before I try that but its something I'll definately try and then I'll be able to compare.

So a big thanks to everyone thats contributed so far, its realy been very helpful - sometimes my less basic questions don't get much (informed) response, but theres 'loads' of high quality stuff come out of this one, superb!

Cheers
Kev

PS on the guinness, I remember a thread about BYOBRA's recipe - can't remember if it was a misprint or not but generally people seemed to feel the roast barley was over-egged. As above, I use 7:2:1 pale:flaked-barley:roast-barley and lots of people like it but to be fair its not very like guinness - the roast flavours are much fresher and more pronounced; far superior in my view but thats always going to be a matter of taste.

[orlando]

PS on the guinness, I remember a thread about BYOBRA's recipe - can't remember if it was a misprint or not but generally people seemed to feel the roast barley was over-egged. As above, I use 7:2:1 pale:flaked-barley:roast-barley and lots of people like it but to be fair its not very like guinness - the roast flavours are much fresher and more pronounced; far superior in my view but thats always going to be a matter of taste.

You might take a look at the latest BeerSmith video featuring Gordon Strong. His contention is that if it doesn't have diastatic power why is it going in the mash. Probably because it is just convenient and why not? Well, he argues, that it does have an adverse effect particularly with darker grains. He draws the analogy between a pot of coffee that is kept on say a hot plate. If you compare a cup of coffee from a freshly brewed pot to one that's been on the hot plate for 90 minutes you're going to notice that the fresh coffee taste is being replaced with a harsher more bitter flavour as the heat continues to extract the more astringent elements. I thought this was quite profound and am going to experiment with adding unfermentables after the mash at the point of introducing sparge water. A 15 minute steep then sparge should/could prevent these harsher extractions occurring. Worth a try as logically it does make sense.

[weiht]

PS on the guinness, I remember a thread about BYOBRA's recipe - can't remember if it was a misprint or not but generally people seemed to feel the roast barley was over-egged. As above, I use 7:2:1 pale:flaked-barley:roast-barley and lots of people like it but to be fair its not very like guinness - the roast flavours are much fresher and more pronounced; far superior in my view but thats always going to be a matter of taste.

You might take a look at the latest BeerSmith video featuring Gordon Strong. His contention is that if it doesn't have diastatic power why is it going in the mash. Probably because it is just convenient and why not? Well, he argues, that it does have an adverse effect particularly with darker grains. He draws the analogy between a pot of coffee that is kept on say a hot plate. If you compare a cup of coffee from a freshly brewed pot to one that's been on the hot plate for 90 minutes you're going to notice that the fresh coffee taste is being replaced with a harsher more bitter flavour as the heat continues to extract the more astringent elements. I thought this was quite profound and am going to experiment with adding unfermentables after the mash at the point of introducing sparge water. A 15 minute steep then sparge should/could prevent these harsher extractions occurring. Worth a try as logically it does make sense.

Gordon Strong may wanna tell guiness and many other breweries of great stouts about that... They have been doing it wrongly for so long by dumping into the mashtun at the start