Who uses chalk (CaCo3) to control mash pH?

[PeeBee]

Let's show you why I think that water report not valid. I should first explain, I can't keep this stuff in my head long, so I put the knowledge into spreadsheets, which I'm pretty good at doing. Because I might not remember why I did something, the spreadsheets are full of error-checks. The most notorious spreadsheet that I've published for others to use (most notorious currently ... it's being expanded which should push me up the notoriety scale). The "Defuddler". That's what I'll use here. The following is a collage to keep it down to just the relevant stuff:

Defuddler Collage (snip).jpg (165.94 KiB) Viewed 4697 times

I'd put the figures in and, oops, Calcium turns red (possibly invalid), and "Alkalinity" (as "bicarbonate"). Alkalinity at zero or less is definitely invalid! Looking a bit deeper ... ah, okay, this has entered the "ion mass balancing" bit. It's all grey to discourage users digging this deep (you should see how grey it goes in the area I'm forced to do the "water hardness" codswallop, including "as CaCO3"), oh look, the anions and cations work out the same (0.58mEq/L), so it earned a red splodge ... I think there might have been some human interference there (or a rather surprising coincidence).

Conclusion: That water analysis IS INVALID!



Hi Eric! I'm surprised you've waded into this one. You must have known it was going to have me haul out the behemoth "Water Defuddler"! Okay, its hardly based on space age technology, but hard to argue with all the same. And it really doesn't like "Hardness". Anyway, I do know "chalk" will increase pH. I also know its excrusiatingly difficult to predict what its going to do! You've said "Add some precipitated chalk, stir and take another reading after 5 minutes", which I suppose helps. But this thread is talking of near "real-time" adjustments to pH with "chalk", which is plain fantasy! I wouldn't attempt that with bicarbonate which is far more predictable. Using "chalk" wouldn't even cross my mind.

Cor, haven't had this much fun on "Jim's forum" in ages. Now who might be responsible for the defective water report ... "My water analysis was provided by wallybrew and has subsequently been confirmed independently." ... oops, I'm in trouble now!

"Wally". "Wally", where are you? ... Hang-on, this might take a while ...

[EDIT: Email "wake up" sent ... ]

[themadhippy]

Conclusion: That water analysis IS INVALID!

On your self written spreadsheet,i can write a spreadsheet that proves the sky is green with purple spots but would it be correct? Anyways who cares if the waters right wrong or upside down it makes beer that the brewer enjoys supping,aint that the most important ting?

[PeeBee]

Conclusion: That water analysis IS INVALID!

On your self written spreadsheet, I can write a spreadsheet that proves the sky is green with purple spots but would it be correct? Anyways who cares if the waters right wrong or upside down it makes beer that the brewer enjoys supping,aint that the most important ting?

Ah, but would you publish such a spreadsheet? Complete and devoid of any password protection? That "Defuddler" spreadsheet is: Downloadable from my "signature" below, and with plenty of documentation. I don't "hide" errors (or distortions of truth), if there are any, I hope someone will point them out so I can fix them.

I'm using the "development" download by-the-way.

And ... if you're making beer for yourself to enjoy, fair enough. But if you're making suggestions that others might follow ... you're fair game!

[PeeBee]

It is a very Valid Profile. ...

Hang on!

You've bumped the bumped the Sodium up (slightly) and chopped the Chloride!

I'm "all ears". What have I done to deserve that?

[nallum]

Regardless, it works. I plug my numbers into GW's water treatment calculator and add the calculated salts. My mash pH is always good and the beers are wonderfully balanced. Just how I like them. Although, admittedly, there's a lot more to it than water treatment. But money well spent, in my experience. The bit I'm interested in, that is, the beer. I find water chemistry beyond what I need know as a brewer - surprisingly little, thanks to other people's efforts - dry, ironically. There's no such thing as a 'perfect water profile'. Just a range within which a given beer style works 'because'.

My rabbit 'Chalky':

360_F_609505336_TcOwwbmOAoAIXa7EbqlhoWMZFUkG3Sos-795087463.jpg (48.71 KiB) Viewed 4667 times

[PeeBee]

With Eric's "edits":

Defuddler Collage (snip-2).jpg (96.97 KiB) Viewed 4662 times

That's better! Fits with Eric's "edits" to Sodium and Chloride now. I don't think Eric purposely made those edits to besmirch me, only overlooked he had made them? Note: "Alkalinity" 12.84mg/L as CaCO3, or, 7.7mg/L as CO3. (The "as CO3" was especially inserted for "GuyPettigrew" who posted earlier so the "Defuddler" has values to punch directly into Graham Wheeler's calculator).

The low "Alkalinity" I'd commented on earlier is also explained. The analysis has been taken from the tap, not the water treatment works. The "Defuddler" has a feature built in for this ... "Adapted", though it involves a very mild bodge. Not applied here because the analysis is from the tap, not the treatment works.

I can sit back and feel smug now!

[PeeBee]

... The bit I'm interested in, that is, the beer. I find water chemistry beyond what I need know as a brewer - surprisingly little, thanks to other people's efforts - dry, ironically. There's no such thing as a 'perfect water profile'. Just a range within which a given beer style works 'because'. ...

I agree!

I set out on this "water" project to counter some of the excessive focus on "water" for home-brewing. But it's turned into an all-encompassing monster that's absorbing huge tracts of my time. And people are still excessively focussing on water!

The Defuddler wasn't entirely a success. Too much detail on display that I can't keep peoples' noses out of (I only thought I was being transparent). The next one I'm working on is a full-blown "water calculator". It'll be based on Chris Colby's water calculator, which is about as simple as I can find, crossed with John Palmer's ramblings which are about as fantastical (fanciful!) as can be found. Somewhere in there I hope to find an answer: Take the mysticism and magic out of something useful, and perhaps everyone returns to thinking the subject very ordinary and spends more time on something more useful?

Humm ... it'll be the end of me. But as far as this fracar goes: Case closed?


Like the rabbit BTW.

[nallum]

I think I have 4 or 5 options at arm's reach to raise pH. I have even used other software recommending baking soda instead of chalk. Did it work? Yeah, but not to a noticeably better level. Possibly not as good in some cases, I don't know my own biases. So I'll stick with using chalk. Why wouldn't I?

[PeeBee]

Ah, blast! The illustrations I've posted clearly show the difference between my "invalid" water analysis and Eric's "modified" (and valid!) analysis is all of eight milligrams per litre (of chloride, much less of sodium). Or, eight "Parts-per-million", but that just makes it sound worse. The hazards of working with low TDS water.

I'm going to get a right roasting off Wally when he sees my email!

[Eric]

Hello Paul, you bumped up the chloride, I just made a minor alteration to sodium to make a balance on Graham's calculator. It needed more sodium, and chloride, in any case, to make a decent beer, and as your mate, WallyBrew, frequently suggests, common salt is a cheap brewing salt.

https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/a-pinch- ... d-brewing/

That's a worthy article for consideration, in particular for those with soft water who may add bucketloads of expensive salts.

[IPA]

PeeBee wrote

And because of there numbers you can

Never mind about your spreadsheet prowess could you please get your grammar correct !!!!

[PeeBee]

PeeBee wrote

And because of there numbers you can

Never mind about your spreadsheet prowess could you please get your grammar correct !!!!

What you about?

I nefer went t'grammer school, so you get "secondary modern" an' you kan like it or lump it.

Okay?

[Trefoyl]

What you about?

I nefer went t'grammer school, so you get "secondary modern" an' you kan like it or lump it.

Okay?

Are you from Cirencester?

IMG_0345.jpeg (2.4 MiB) Viewed 4584 times

[PeeBee]

Hello Paul, you bumped up the chloride, I just made a minor alteration to sodium to make a balance on Graham's calculator. ...

Flippin' rubbish. Go back to the sixth post an' it says

Cl 10. ...

Oh aye.

Bums and donkey poo. I'm going home.


An' what's "Tryfoyl" about ...

Someone stating, in indelible ink, he kan't spell "Jeep". At least he kan spell "kleer" an' ain't sucked into all that sissy soft "C" narnas.

[nallum]

I'm not sure what that means, because I don't care that much about water, remember? Far too dry and opinionated for me. I'll assume there's a perceived theoretical 'balance' gone astray. Whether that's due to Neil's measurements (instrument(s)), or his interpretation of the data, makes no difference at this scale of 'anaemic' water. But, again, it only improved my beers, applied to GW's water treatment calculator, and, indeed, other calculators. So I really don't care. It works. I can't explain what might have gone wrong, because it didn't go wrong, for me. Quite the opposite of going wrong, in reality.

360_F_609505336_TcOwwbmOAoAIXa7EbqlhoWMZFUkG3Sos-795087463.jpg (48.71 KiB) Viewed 4572 times