Who uses chalk (CaCo3) to control mash pH?

[nallum]

Who uses chalk (CaCo3) to control mash pH? I do, especially in dark beers. Soft water. I find it works fine. My pH meter too.

[guypettigrew]

Interesting! How much do you use, and how do you work out how much to use?

Guy

[nallum]

https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

[nallum]

I should add some context, Guy. So as not to confuse you or anyone else. Easily done. Apparently. I have been advised and even told that I shouldn't be using chalk to manage mash pH. Mainly by Americans with conflicts of interest (customers to con) or just wankers who 'know' more about brewing water than I give a shit about, frankly. They tell me CaCO3 doesn't dissolve in water. True. But I keep telling them a mash ain't water. Binary Americans.

[PeeBee]

But why put something in the water described as precipitated chalk?

Why ignore someone like Kai Troester of "Braukaiser.com", a German, who has a strong liking for "chalk", yet says only half of it can dissolve.

Why use "chalk" when there are things, certainly more reliable things, readily available?

Why specify "Soft Water"? Would you use it in anything else? What the hell is "Soft" water to a brewer anyway?

I can't recognise myself in your w***** category, perhaps I have a problem? Can't see how the category covers you either? Perhaps you have a problem too?

[nallum]

Primarily because it works well enough to control pH in a malted barley mash. There’s nothing to be fixed. No superior alternatives. Just beliefs and contrarians.

My water is considered ‘soft’ by most people, including me:

Ca 6.1
Mg 1.4
Na 3.8
SO4 3.5
Cl 10.9
Alkalinity (CaCO3) 13

[Jim]

I tried it several times, but I could never get it dissolve.

[PeeBee]

Primarily because it works well enough to control pH in a malted barley mash. There’s nothing to be fixed. No superior alternatives. Just beliefs and contrarians. ...

You'll have to excuse me. I get very ratty with people insisting others must use a bad idea because that's what they use (with no sane argument why they should use it). I wouldn't question Kai's use of "chalk", but coming from Kai I can assume using chalk is a very advanced technique, quite inappropriate for most users. I don't care some people insist on using "chalk", they can if they want, but I don't like them crippling other users with techniques that have no advantage over other "easier" techniques.

And! I reckon I can play at policeman about such things ... 'cos I used to be doing these misdemeanours not so long ago.



As for "Americans": I can go on Forum sites over there and start arguments with people just like you! There's rather a lot of folk over there, and you can quickly find folk who disagree with you. And because of there numbers you can quickly have a crowd disageeing with you. It's rather a good place to hone diplomacy skills!

It's not hard to find folk who share your own views either.



(I have a pathological hatred of all things "Water Hardness" to do with brewing by-the-way. So that might mean I'm not entirely cured of the misdemeanours I presume to police).

[PeeBee]

... My water is considered ‘soft’ by most people, including me:

Ca 6.1
Mg 1.4
Na 3.8
SO4 3.5
Cl 10.9
Alkalinity (CaCO3) 13

Not me! It's positively "Hard" compared to the last person I spoke with (Outer Hebrides). But I'll guess you're somewhere down the Western UK, inland 'cos there's not much evidence of salt spray, possibly still way north (Highlands)? The bit confusing me is the "Alkalinity": in flippin' "as CaCO3" units of course, wouldn't surprise me if that's a reason you use "chalk" (it is some peoples' excuse). The Alkalinity is a bit low for a report from a water company? They seem stuck on dosing to a set "18-20mg/L" (as CaCO3), but I've not enough experiece to be sure of that, however, it does suggest the possibility this is a private supply?

All that, and I'm far from "experienced"!

Anyhow, less of that. I'll cram it in my "Defuddler": ... Eh? ...

Okay, completely to pot! You have got a private supply along with (or!) a pretty bad analysis. Chuck what you like in it. You're not going to make a useful addition (unless luck is on your side).

[nallum]

In water, Jim? Definitely not going to do much in water. However, if a little mash is used to experiment with and pH samples are taken before and about 5 minutes after adding chalk, no more than recommended, it definitely raises the pH, implying it dissolves quite readily in a mash.

PeeBee, I'm not telling people what they should use. It's none of my business what works for others. My point is simple, don't listen to people who claim something doesn't work when, in reality, it demonstrably does work. And sufficiently well so as not to be considered 'inferior' or 'less efficient' than alternative additions to raise mash pH. It's so straightforward to test for a brewer armed with a pH meter and some chalk.

[PeeBee]

But you're not providing any evidence that it does actually work. You are only saying it works and expect people to go along with it. You want people to also believe there's only two types of American, those out to fleece people and w******. You publish an impossible water profile. You have a trust issue, or, some people actually try to believe what you say (which is even scarier).

Despite this, some of what you say is believable. You must add "chalk" to the mash. And when you do the mash pH will go up. But I think Jim would like to know "how much?" and "Why should I believe you?". The latter because it seems you have to leave a fragile glass pH probe in a very hot porridge while you stir the mash looking for the bit that's displaying the desired pH. And doesn't the heat alter the pH? I think I've heard that somewhere.

I'm disappointed you've not spoken more about the invalid water profile you posted. I was looking forward to help sorting that out for you. I'm one of those w****** you see.

[Eric]

It is a very Valid Profile.

CaCO3pHAdjust.jpg (372.49 KiB) Viewed 1787 times

PeeBee, I've added chalk to a mash and it does increase pH. If you doubt it, do a mini-mash with 20 gram of milled Pale malt and 60ml of your water. Keep it warm in an oven and take a reading after half and hour with a small sample chilled in a tumbler from a freezer. Add some precipitated chalk, stir and take another reading after 5 minutes.

[nallum]

My water analysis was provided by wallybrew and has subsequently been confirmed independently. I’m pretty confident it’s sufficiently accurate, for my brewing needs. I never could quite nail a balanced dark beer until treating my ‘private’ brewing water with, amongst other things, chalk. I don’t need convincing it works. If you can’t even be bothered to check the effect of adding chalk in anything but water, that’s your business. How deep you choose to burrow yourself in a rabbit hole makes no difference to me. Nor did I type all Americans were either binary or wankers. Your thought process, I believe. I was merely referring to those Americans and others telling me that brewers shouldn’t be using chalk in the mash.

[Eric]

There are easier and more effective additions that increase alkalinity than chalk. Graham's calculator requires more sodium than calcium carbonate. Do you add the chalk to the mash of the water?

Having very alkaline water, dark beers simply require less acid additions and always comes with a decent level of calcium, so all salt additions are added to the mash or kettle, without insolubility problems.

[nallum]

Yes, chalk and gypsum go in the mash, with the grains. The rest of the water treatment goes in the kettle.