My poor efficiency

[Martin the fish]

I'm getting around 60-65% efficiency from my system
I'd really like to increase this but am unsure where or how to start. My main reason for wanting to increase efficiency is obviously waste-i'm utilising a little over half the potential. I'd also like to start brewing some Durden Park recipes and i reckon to get these half right i'm going to need better efficiency.

Last brew i mashed for 2hrs and sparged with 85C liquor for an hour. I then boiled for 90 mins.



Can anyone throw some light on this subject please?

[agentgonzo]

Most people that I've heard of who get ~60% efficiency seems to be because of a bad crush. Though this is mostly from American brewing boards where the LHBS doesn't do a good job of crushing the malt. Do you crush it yourself or buy it pre-crushed. I get mine from the farnborough homebrew shop pre-crushed and get ~80% efficiency.

One other thing that I have noticed is that if you're using an online efficiency calculator, be aware that most of these are set up for American gallons, which differ from the good old Imperial gallon (5 Imperial gallons = 6 US Gallons).

How old is your malt? If it's quite old, the amylase gets tired and won't work quite as quickly, though for a 2 hour mash, I'd expect it to be done. Did you do an iodine test on the wort?

Water pH and chlorine content can also have an effect on efficiency, but I don't know a huge amount about this. Maybe someone in your locality can chip in with some water info?

Shape of MLT and manifold design can also affect efficiency, but I guess that you know what you're doing a bit better than that.

[Martin the fish]

My grain comes from my HBS pre-crushed. Dennis crushes it the day he sends it to me. I used it two days after recieving it.

Iodine test??? Nope didn't do that as i have no idea what it is or what it involves.

I used Jim's efficiency chart with my calculator so that should be reasonably close.

I have no chlorine in my water and the PH is 6.5. In mash it is PH6. I don't see how a three quarter drop in PH will raise my efficiency 20%, but i stand to be corrected.

Shape of MLT? Whats an MLT???

Thanks for your input, sorry to sound negative.

[Matt]

Hi Martin,

IMHO its not worth worrying too much about efficiency, you can still produce fantastic beer, you'll just need more malt.

btw MLT = Mash tun.

My experience has been that my efficiency used to hover around the mid 60s and it just seemed to go up gradually once I had got used to my kit and was able to be more methodical on a brewday.

That's not to say you aren't being methodical, just my experience. Keep brewing

[agentgonzo]

MLT - mash/lauter tun, sorry, too many acronyms. If it's too shallow then the water won't percolate through very much of the grain bed and will not be able to extract as much sugar. A general rule of thumb off the top of my head was that the grain bed should be at least half as high is it is wide.

Iodine test. You can get a bottle of 'tincture of iodine' from your LHBS. This is basically iodine in solution. Iodine forms a dark brown solution that will turn a dark blue/black if it reacts with starch. This can be used as an indicator to tell if there is any starch left in your mash (that hasn't been converted to sugars).

Get a white tile/plate and put about a teaspoon of wort from your mash tun on the plate. Add a drop of iodine onto it. If the drop turns black/dark blue, then there is still starch present in your mash and you need to mash for longer. If it doesn't and the drop remiains a dark brown colour, then conversion is complete. Discard the test sample as iodine is toxic. This tests conversion from starch to sugars. It does not distinguish between dextrins and maltose, so the wort may still be high in unfermentables, but that's not relevant here.

It may be worth taking a photo of your crushed grain and posting it here for a second opinion.

[Martin the fish]

I doubt if it's the grain. Another brewer here in NZ gets exactly the same grain and 85% efficiency.
The iodine will only tell me if any sugars are left. This won't help me up my efficiency though. I couldn't slow my sparge down any more than my last brew without my mash becoming quite cold. Towards the end of my mash the bed temp was dropping to around 66C, with 90C sparge liquor.

I think i will need to engineer a motorised sparge arm and have a lid on my MT(like Wallybrews set-up) to help keep temps better. I'm also keen to get my mash PH down to 5.2 or 3 also.

But all this interfere's with my brewing time so i might just carry on how i am and be satisfied with some rather yummy Ale's.

Still-it's always best to ask if you don't know eh?

EDIT: My grain bed is probably as high as it is wide. Twice as high if comparing to the narrow end of my coolbox. But it is rectangular. Soon to change...

[Should drink more]

It's possible the mash pH of 6 may have something to do with it. I have always used that PH5.2 buffer powder and I've been getting 75 to 80% without really sparging properly (because I hadn't joined this forum). I don't know what I would get without it though. Worth a try perhaps.

[Martin the fish]

It's possible the mash pH of 6 may have something to do with it. I have always used that PH5.2 buffer powder and I've been getting 75 to 80% without really sparging properly (because I hadn't joined this forum). I don't know what I would get without it though. Worth a try perhaps.

Possibly worth a try. But that does predict that if my PH was 7 i'd get 40% efficiency? And if PH 8 i'd get 20%? That doesn't seem right to me. You'd just go for PH 4 and get 100%? Or am i missing something? Or drinking too much?

[Buzz]

MTF, I also get around 60/65% efficiency. Have done ever since I went AG last September apart from on one occasion when I got 80%. I keep print outs of all my brews and have double-checked the numbers more than once. I did nothing different in the 80% brew, same grain, same water etc. etc. so have no idea why that brew should have been more efficient.

FWIW, I have tried PH5.2 on three brews since and it made no difference. In fact, I subsequently had problems with yeast attenuation and have stopped using it.

The only thought I have is that there may be a direct link with mash temp and efficiency. I think the hotter you mash, the less efficient it becomes. Hopefully someone else may be able to expand on this. Personally I don't worry any more. As the beer is good, I just accept my eqpt and technique provides 65% efficiency and adjust the grain bill accordingly.

[Martin the fish]

You should see a noticeable increase in efficiency if you get that mash ph down to the 5.3 range and keep the enzymes happy. You can adjust the design of you lauter tun and sparge as carefully as you like but if the starches haven't been converted efficiently you wont see much if any improvement.

I don't know what products are available to you over there but if you can reduce the alkalinity to leave the residual alkalinity at 20 or 30 I reckon the acidity of the mash should get you close or at least leave you in a much better shape.

Efficiency doesn't increase with a continually lowering ph, 5.3 is the range where the alpa and beta enzymes work most effectively.

My water is extremely low in Alkalinity. Close to none really. I am due a test in the next month and am going to take it to a proper lab for testing. They require a few samples and a LOT OF MONEY. Why does everything involved with hobbies always cost loads of money?

There isn't a huge amount of difference between 6 and 5.3. Yet people on this forum achieve better efficiencys with harder water than mine? I think it may be something i don't understand in the process and am not paying attention too.
Nonetheless i am well happy with my beers and am only interested in getting my efficiency higher to reduce the amount of grain i am using. Or reduce the amount of grain i am throwing away that isn't utilised properly.

I'm sure a bigger shiny brewery will help, please say it will.

[Buzz]

PH 5.2 doesn't work for every one. I'm aware of someone who's tested a few times now an has never managed to achieve a ph of 5.2 using it.

Yes, it never hit 5.2 for me. I've ordered some CRSand DLS to try on my next brew but, I've got so much beer stacking up, I'm probably not going to be able to try it out until next month.

[Martin the fish]

I've a feeling it is to do with the plumbing. I've always taken water directly from my storage containers for testing. My outside taps are independant from the inside plumbing too and this is now where i take my water from. Also i think that the state of my roof deteriorating and my gutters may be an issue. Perhaps i should collect water thats just used for brewing? Thinking about it, my filters haven't been checked for a while either... mmm. About a year so my charcoal filters are used up and my diatom filter and particle filters probably aren't too clever either.

I'll ask dennis for some stuff to adjust down to 5.3. This isn't really an issue as i've spent half my life getting hard water soft for fishkeeping. But i'm not sure i'd want to consume some of the stuff i've added to aquarium water to be honest. I really thought i'd never have to piss arse around with water again once i left the ornamental fish industry-silly me.

[Barley Water]

I feel you pain, I am the poster boy for lousy efficiency. It seems to me that you would know it if you were not coverting the starches in your mash though because if you didn't, your beer whould never clear and you would actually be able to taste the starch. I don't even bother doing an iodine test anymore because frankly, it has never been a problem.

If your mash ph is high however, this can cause several problems, only one of which is poor extraction. This is especially an issue when making lighter beers (since the darker malts tend to make the mash more acidic naturally).The big problem with high ph in the mash, besides causing problems with the enzymes, is that as you sparge, you will extract relatively more tanins as the ph rises. This will cause an astringent taste in the beer which again will be even more noticable in the lighter colored beers. To get around this problem, I also use the 5.2 powder since my water has a pretty good load of both temporary and well as permanent hardness causing it to be somewhat basic.

The main thing you want to strive for is consistency. If you always get lousy extraction, just plan for it and everything will come out ok. Of course I say that but every once in awhile, I end up with a much bigger beer than planned (like my last brew day for instance). I usually don't see that as a big problem however and just go with the flow. Many of the brewing books would lead you to believe that there is something wrong with you if you can't get 80% efficency. I think that is somewhat like watching porn and coming to the conclusion that every man is hung like a horse, it just aint reality.

[Martin the fish]

Thanks BW.
I'm not overly bothered except that i feel like i'm 'wasting' my grains to an extent. My beers are getting better and better with each brew and i'm enjoying the process more and more. I'm also enjoying the end results more and more and my taste is getting more 'trained'

I'm just a bit worried that with a Durden Park recipe i'll be using a whole sack of grain to get just 25ltr's(bit of exaggeration there but you know what i mean )

I'm happy with the fact that i can brew a beer that i much prefer to anything available to me here commercially.

If i understood EXACTLY the whole process i'd probably be able to work it out for myself. But i don't.
I don't understand why 66-68C is the temp for mashing. Or why you boil for only 90 mins. Or 60. Why you sparge with 85C liquor? Basically i don't know what the actuall processess are doing and why i'm doing them. Which doesn't sit well with me.
I understand completely why i use helium and O2 when diving, why i need to and how to adjust the two to give me a gas that will perform what i want it to at a certain depth.
Currently i brew how i do cos thats how i've been told. I haven't ever been explained why. Which is why i bombard the forum with a lot of questions.
Anyone feel like explaining the whole process, what happens when you do each step etc? Or just post a link and i'll have a good read.

[agentgonzo]

Anyone feel like explaining the whole process, what happens when you do each step etc? Or just post a link and i'll have a good read.

http://www.byo.com/
Says pretty much all of it. There are some good books about it all too. The big book of brewing by David Line is the one that I have.