Leffe Blonde

[PaulStat]

Hi folks,

For my second AG I'd like to do a Leffe Blonde clone, having done a search these are the ones I've found so far:

Number One
Number Two

I must admit to getting a little bit confused about all the new malts, sugars, yeasts I've never seen before, to get a decent clone of a brew length of 19L how does this sound? I'm also struggling to figure out the quantities of things I should be using, I keep going either above or below the boundaries set in beersmith belgian blond ale category. And as for the colour I'm finding that very hard to hit with the below ingredients

4500gms Pilsner Malt
450gms Aromatic Malt
200gms Sucrose <------- Standard white table sugar?

Safbrew S-33 Beer Yeast

40gms Hallertau hops 90 min boil
20gms Saaz hops 15 min boil

Ummm help I'm a little bit lost, being unfamiliar with the software doesn't help

Cheers,
Paul

[Barley Water]

If I were going to choose between the two, I would go with door #2. I just did a similar brew but I wasn't necessarily going for a clone. I used Jamil Z's formulation then played around with it a little. I used jaggary instead of Belgian candy sugar and I also added just a little lemmon zest at knockout just for the hell of it. Also, I fermented with WLP500 which is the Chimay yeast. Since I don't have the stuff bottled yet, I am not sure how it will all come out. I did taste a little when I racked it to secondary though and it was pretty spicy so I suspect my version will be a little more "agressive" than Leffe (and that is ok with me). I think the whole deal with this beer is getting the fermentation to go the way you want it to. Some of those Belgian yeast strains can really produce some wild tastes under the right conditions which makes brewing beers like this so much fun. The other thing I like about doing Belgians is that you get to do pretty much whatever you want to which makes for a very unique finished product.

[PaulStat]

If I were going to choose between the two, I would go with door #2. I just did a similar brew but I wasn't necessarily going for a clone. I used Jamil Z's formulation then played around with it a little. I used jaggary instead of Belgian candy sugar and I also added just a little lemmon zest at knockout just for the hell of it. Also, I fermented with WLP500 which is the Chimay yeast. Since I don't have the stuff bottled yet, I am not sure how it will all come out. I did taste a little when I racked it to secondary though and it was pretty spicy so I suspect my version will be a little more "agressive" than Leffe (and that is ok with me). I think the whole deal with this beer is getting the fermentation to go the way you want it to. Some of those Belgian yeast strains can really produce some wild tastes under the right conditions which makes brewing beers like this so much fun. The other thing I like about doing Belgians is that you get to do pretty much whatever you want to which makes for a very unique finished product.

What do you think of my interpretation above?

[PaulStat]

Took another look at the northern brewer recipe, looks like I went way over on my estimated grain bill, anyway here's the adjustments

Belgian Pilsner 3650gms
Belgian Aromatic 340gms
Sucrose 900gms

Hallertau 40gms 90 min boil
Czech Saaz 20gms 15 min boil

Safbrew S33

This will apparently give (according to beer tools pro)

OG: 1.064
TG: 1.016
Colour: 6.77 SRM
ABV: 6.3%
IBU: 30

At what stage does the sugar get added though?

[jubby]

Interesting post PS.

I am looking at a Leffe clone to brew, you are asking all the questions I need answers to!

That does not help much does it.

Thanks anyway.

[steve_flack]

Took another look at the northern brewer recipe, looks like I went way over on my estimated grain bill, anyway here's the adjustments

Belgian Pilsner 3650gms
Belgian Aromatic 340gms
Sucrose 900gms

Hallertau 40gms 90 min boil
Czech Saaz 20gms 15 min boil

Safbrew S33

This will apparently give (according to beer tools pro)

OG: 1.064
TG: 1.016
Colour: 6.77 SRM
ABV: 6.3%
IBU: 30

At what stage does the sugar get added though?

You'd add the sugar in the boil. You should expect much better attenuation than that with that much sugar (and much higher ABV than the OG suggests).

[PaulStat]

Took another look at the northern brewer recipe, looks like I went way over on my estimated grain bill, anyway here's the adjustments

Belgian Pilsner 3650gms
Belgian Aromatic 340gms
Sucrose 900gms

Hallertau 40gms 90 min boil
Czech Saaz 20gms 15 min boil

Safbrew S33

This will apparently give (according to beer tools pro)

OG: 1.064
TG: 1.016
Colour: 6.77 SRM
ABV: 6.3%
IBU: 30

At what stage does the sugar get added though?

You'd add the sugar in the boil. You should expect much better attenuation than that with that much sugar (and much higher ABV than the OG suggests).

Thanks steve, from the posts I've seen on here you seem to give the most advise regarding belgian beers. Am I correct in thinking the ABV would actually me closer to 7.5%, if so how does beer tools pro calculate it's values and which other ones are questionable. I guess what I'm really trying to say is how to estimate the apparent attenuation? I currently have it set to 75%

Oh almost forgot, would that be the start of the boil for the sugar?

[steve_flack]

I don't have BeerTools so I can't comment on what their app does, but having run the recipe through my app (BeerAlchemy) here's what I get

OG (including sugar) 1.064
FG 1.006

ABV 7.8%
Attenuation 90.7%

I think that maybe there's a bit too much sugar in there for this recipe. The data in 'Brew like a Monk' says OG 1.064, ABV 6.6%, 25 IBU. The ingredients are apparently Pilsner malt, pale malt and maize with hallertau and saaz hops. That's not to say you should follow the commercial recipe. I think your malt bill is fine it's just a bit too sugary.

One thing I would say is to use liquid yeast for this. Don't waste your time with dried for this style of beer.

Sugar can be added at any time in the boil but I add it at the beginning.

[PaulStat]

Hmmm so beer aclhemy calculates the attenuation for you? In beer tools pro you can change the attenuation but that's a manual step, the default value is 75%. Unfortunately I don't have a mac so I tried Beer Smith aswell, which just seems to assume 75% and you can't even change it.

What amount of sugar would you recommend? Oh and liquid yeast, any one in particular? Also another question (:=P) is there anywhere I can get all these ingredients in one place, everywhere I've looked so far has had one ingredient but not the other, which could be a killer in delivery charges.

[steve_flack]

Sadly there isn't a Leffe liquid yeast. I'd go with WLP500 (White labs Trappist) for this as it's fruity rather than phenolic and is easier to use than WLP530 (tends to stop working completely if it gets too cold).

There seems to be a bit of a Aromatic malt shortage at the mo but theoretically the Hop and Grape should do all this stuff. The pilsner malt is going to be expensive for this. It's up to you whether you use this or lager malt. I will say I have been using Belgian pilsner malt and it's a lovely malt with a really nice flavour.

FWIW, BeerAlchemy keeps a database of the average attenuations the manufacturers give for their yeasts. These figures however assume a normal all-malt grist (whatever that is). BA does however assume sugar is fully fermentable (not entirely true but close enough is most cases) so it will give a lower FG than you would expect for an all-malt grist.

To be honest I'm surprised the other apps don't do this. Maybe there's something you need to change somewhere?

[steve_flack]

Sorry, forgot about sugar amounts.

Having played around with it this is what I came up with

Pils malt 4250g
Aromatic 250g
Sugar 300g

19L 70% Efficiency

OG 1.058
FG 1.010
AA 82.3%

ABV 6.4%

It may come out a bit paler than Leffe but is closer to the quoted attenuation levels.

[PaulStat]

The hop shop seems to do all the ingredients apart from the yeast, they do however have Wyeast - Ale Belgium Abbey - 1214. Sound ok?

[mysterio]

Yep, that yeast will do fine, or Hop & Grape if you want the white labs one.

You'll need to make a starter, so you'll have to get some dried malt extract if you don't have any already.

One comment i have about your recipe, i'd be careful with Hallertau as your bittering hop, most of the current crop are around 2%AA, and your beer well end up tasting very Hallertau-y because you'll have to use so much.

[PaulStat]

Yep, that yeast will do fine, or Hop & Grape if you want the white labs one.

You'll need to make a starter, so you'll have to get some dried malt extract if you don't have any already.

One comment i have about your recipe, i'd be careful with Hallertau as your bittering hop, most of the current crop are around 2%AA, and your beer well end up tasting very Hallertau-y because you'll have to use so much.

Hopshop quoted 4% for this, still puts me in the correct range for a belgian blond ale acording to BJCP style guidlines

[Barley Water]

You look like you are having some good fun there. I wish I could be of more help but I have only brewed this style once and I am not sure how it is going to come out yet. I decided to use Jamil Z's formulation with some twists. First of all, I really hate to just add regular sugar to anything. I figure if I am going to add any adjuncts, I want to get flavor out of them so for my interpretation, I used jaggary instead of plane sugar. I also added a couple of ounces of honey malt to mine to sweeten it up, but just a little. Finally, I threw in a little lemon zest, it will be intesting to see if I can even taste it. My plan is to bottle this stuff this week so I will get a better idea how things are going then. I suspect like most Belgian beers, the fermentation is critical since the yeast is doing alot of the talking in a beer like this.