London Pride help please

[SiHoltye]

Hello,

Am trying to put together a London Pride recipe based on the Real Ale Almanac's figures. Using the grain bill and hops there I have got the suggested 1.040 OG, and 30 IBU's. What I don't have is a realistic expectation of WLP002 attenuating to 80%. I'll grow a 3L starter from the vial, and pitch the sediment from that but it won't get down to 1.008 will it? LP is a 4.1-4.7%ABV beer depending on what format and when you got it. The other issue is the colour. I'm not that bothered about the colour in so much as it would be the first factor to ditch should it interfere with flavour, but can the recipe below be improved to achieve the right ABV, the right flavour, and the right colour?

Ingredients
23L@85% efficiency, 90min mash @ 67°C, 90 min boil, GW's 'general' liquor style
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.09 kg Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 89.86 %
0.25 kg Maize, Flaked (2.6 EBC) Grain 7.14 %
0.10 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 55L (120.0 EBC) Grain 3.00 %
12.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.60 %] (90 min) Hops 6.1 IBU
12.00 gm Challenger [6.40 %] (90 min) Hops 8.4 IBU
12.00 gm Northdown [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 11.2 IBU
10.00 gm Northdown [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
1 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.040 SG - OK according to Real Ale Almanac
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG - Too high to produce a 4.1% beer, based on WLP002 66.5% average attenuation
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 3.51 %- Wanting 4.1%
Bitterness: 30.0 IBU - Happy
Est Color: 9.8 EBC - Wanting near 24EBC

If I have Beersmith alter the gravity to 1.047, the yeast (at 66.5% attenuation) creates a 4.1% ABV beer, but it is still very light in colour. I'd need 20% 55L crystal to get 24EBC's

I have used the search facility...do you know how many hits there are for 'London Pride'!!! Any wisdom out there muchly appreciated.

[Matt]

Is the darker colour achieved by kettle caramelisation I wonder?

[SiHoltye]

Maybe, is that likely something they do at the brewery? Wouldn't that use additional energy and time, things accountants don't like

I'm an idiot , a blind idiot

For those interested I am extracting recipes from Roger Protz book Real Ale Almanac and converting them using Beersmith.


RECIPE No 1 FULLERS LONDON PRIDE.

25 litres OG 1.040 ABV 4.1% 30 units of bitterness

OPTIC PALE MALT 3900 gms
FLAKED MAIZE 306 gms
CRYSTAL MALT 130 gms
Fullers use caramel to obtain 24 units of colour.I found 1and a qurter teaspoons brewers caramel gave the right colour.

HOPS Boil time 90 minutes
TARGET 11 gms
NORTHDOWN 10 gms
CHALLENGER 11 gms

10 gms of northdown added in the last 15 minutes

I recommend the use of WYEAST 1968 ESB yeast as this is Fullers own yeast.

Okay dokay, ignore the colour. What about the idea that Fuller's made Pride with a 1.040 OG achieving 4.1% with their yeast? (WLP002, Wyeast 1968) Don't buy it I'm upping my OG to 1.047 and to hell with the colour issue. 1.047 OG and 30IBU's. Any improvement suggestions?

SiHoltye's Pale Pride

Ingredients
23L@85% efficiency, 90min mash @ 67°C, 90 min boil, GW's 'general' liquor style
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.63 kg Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 89.86 %
0.29 kg Maize, Flaked (2.6 EBC) Grain 7.14 %
0.12 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 55L (120.0 EBC) Grain 3.00 %
12.69 gm Challenger [6.40 %] (90 min) Hops 8.4 IBU
12.69 gm Northdown [8.50 %] (90 min) Hops 11.2 IBU
12.69 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.60 %] (90 min) Hops 6.1 IBU - not using target 'cos I I don't want to buy 100g of them, EKG's will substitute according to Beersmith.
10.57 gm Northdown [8.50 %] (15 min) Hops 4.3 IBU
1 Pkgs English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.047 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.13 %
Bitterness: 30.0 IBU
Est Color: 10.9 EBC

[Hogarth]

I did a London Pride recently using the Fullers yeast. The OG was 1038 and the FG was 1015. I mashed high at 68°C and caramelized the first runnings. The IBU was 38.5. Nice tasting pint, but perhaps a bit sweet. Seeing as you've raised the OG, do you think your IBU should be a bit higher too? Not that it's a very hoppy beer, of course.

I dunno about 'Pale Pride', it sounds like a BNP rally.

[SiHoltye]

I dunno about 'Pale Pride', it sounds like a BNP rally.

35 IBU's would be about 0.75 BU:GU, that was the ratio in the Real Ale Almanac so I'll go for that. Thanks for the reminder.

[Benjy Edwards]

I have noticed that most recipes that clone commercial beers always specify a very high attenuation and low finishing gravity, which is at odds with the attenuative power of the recommended yeast. I have been brewing exclusively with WLP002 for the past couple of years, and while it does attenuate more than what White Labs specifies (63-70%), the real world attenuation is not enough get normal strength worts down to single digits set forth in the recipes. I am interested in finding out if others have the same experience. Even if my hydrometer is not calibrated, I use the same one for original and terminal gravities and so the attenuation percentage is accurate. Mine using WLP002 is typically 70-75%.

[steve_flack]

London Pride doesn't contain flaked maize any more. The last I heard it's an all malt brew with 96% pale malt and 4% crystal. Opinion seems to suggest that the crystal is of a darker variety than usual. My standard grist is 95% pale malt and 5% dark crystal and it comes out very similar in colour to LP.

[Graham]

I have noticed that most recipes that clone commercial beers always specify a very high attenuation and low finishing gravity, which is at odds with the attenuative power of the recommended yeast. I have been brewing exclusively with WLP002 for the past couple of years, and while it does attenuate more than what White Labs specifies (63-70%), the real world attenuation is not enough get normal strength worts down to single digits set forth in the recipes. I am interested in finding out if others have the same experience. Even if my hydrometer is not calibrated, I use the same one for original and terminal gravities and so the attenuation percentage is accurate. Mine using WLP002 is typically 70-75%.

I do wonder where some of these attenuations specified by yeast suppliers and the like come from. An all-malt wort is about 63 percent simple sugars; maltose mostly, but some other monosaccharides and disaccharides. A brewer's yeast should be able to tackle all of these without issue. The fermentability of a yeast, in my view, should reflect what types of the 37 percent higher sugars that it can tackle, and how fast it can tackle them. Nevertheless, a typical fermentability of 63% gives a minimum real attenuation of 63% and when converted to apparent attenuation gives about 75%. I know mash regime will alter this to an extent, but yeast suppliers do not specify mash conditions, and with a long enough mash time this is what I would expect as a minimum.

If a yeast flocculates early, fermentation will slow down considerably, but it will not stop dead; the yeast is still there. Rousing will usually get it going at full speed again, which is what traditional commercial brewers did on a regular basis. I have no problem with rousing, should the fancy take me, but many home brewers do. Some yeast, such as Ringwood, requires frequent rousing to keep it going anyway.

I cannot see any mechanism whereby any yeast should habitually attenuate much less than 75% AA, unless the suppliers are talking real attenuation rather than apparent attenuation. At typical original gravities alcohol tolerance should not be an issue.

People who design recipes for public consumption, and those that write brewing software, have to make some assumptions, mostly to make things novice proof - exploding bottles and the like. Assumptions have to be made for the amount of sugar used up in yeast growth (less remaining to produce alcohol). Assumptions have to made about fermentability of the wort. Assumptions have to be made about alcohol content (affects hydrometer reading), and so on. Then the big question is what really is final gravity. A good yeast will keep nibbling away at the higher sugars, albeit slowly, for many months, thus the gravity will continue to drop over time. It is quite a difficult juggling act, and it is probably impossible to match everybody's experience.

[oblivious]

Graham as far as I am aware white labs us a standard wort for all their yeast, I would presume that its base on as standard mash regime and fermentibility and so any percentage are relative to all their yeast range.

[oblivious]

Do you think they mash for their wort or just use spray malt ?

I am not sure, but the sue a good few bio reactors kinda like a fermetors and I would expect the cost of spray to be expensive to run but who knows

[oblivious]

Do you think they mash for their wort or just use spray malt ?

I am not sure, but the sue a good few bio reactors kinda like a fermetors and I would expect the cost of spray to be expensive to run but who knows

How big are these bio reactors ?

It could be a range from a few hundred liters to thousands, the other options is that they could have someone provide that with a standard wort and get it cheaper that spray malt?

[Graham]

I would suggest the bio-reactors are used for growing up the yeast prior to drying. In the bio-reactors they do not use a wort, but ordinary sucrose with controlled oxygen levels (and presumably some sort of nutrient). It is one reason why dried yeast doesn't perform true to type and usually loses its top-working characteristic. A consequence of growing in this way is that high levels of sterols are built up, but the suppliers have cunningly turned that into an advantage.

Free-range yeast is much better and I'm going to start a campaign to outlaw battery-farming of yeast.

The fermentability test would be done on a standard wort though. No point in doing it otherwise.

The National Collection of Yeast Cultures do their fermentability tests in tall, 6-foot high, glass tubes. Their standard wort, however, is quite weak, around 1.030 I think, so when you buy a yeast from the National Collection and use it in a more typical brewer's wort, there is no real guarantee that it will perform in the manner that their description indicates. The test is not equivalent to the real world. It is still good, sound, yeast, and behaves true to type, it is just that it does not always behave as you would expect from the description.

The Brewlab slants/slopes are the best stuff that I have come across for performance and value for money, apart from real live brewers' yeast and stuff that I've cultured from a bottle. It is a pity that more shops don't stock them.

[Andy]

Free-range yeast is much better and I'm going to start a campaign to outlaw battery-farming of yeast.