Stiff Mash

[ADDLED]

Im doing another Durden Park recipe and it calls for a very stiff mash. The last one i did was a stiff mash so i used 2/1 ratio after looking up on the forum and seeing what other people thought was a stiff mash, but that was still quite watery. What consistency am i looing for in a very stiff mash, would 1.5/1 or even 1/1 be ok for this?
thanks
ADDLED

[steve_flack]

Regardless of what it says I still wouldn't go any less than 2:1. If the beer is very strong then take the first runnings and do a partigyle. What's the recipe?

[ADDLED]

Tks Steve, its the 1750 London Porter @ OG 1.090.
Whats partigyle? Does that mean 1st runnings for the main beer then small beer with the rest?

[steve_flack]

It can be that or you can take the separate gyles and combine them. Some brewers boiled the gyles separately and combined them others blended them then boiled. Fullers still partigyle their main beers (Chiswick, LP, ESB and GP). They get two gyles and blend accordingly. IIRC they currently blend then boil but I could be wrong. In the past they also partigyled their darker beers (mild, OB, OBE).

[boingy]

Daft questions:
Is there a reason why a stiff mash would be required?
Is it just to keep the quantity of wort lower or is there some other advantage (apart from being able to mash more grain in a given size of MT)?

[steve_flack]

It's probably so the sugars are less diluted and the gravity higher.

[Wolfy]

A stiff mash (about 2.5L water per kg grain) will give you a less fermentable wort resulting in a sweeter/maltier beer.

[boingy]

I consider 2.5l per kg to be a normal mash, not a stiff one.

[ADDLED]

It can be that or you can take the separate gyles and combine them. Some brewers boiled the gyles separately and combined them others blended them then boiled.

Tks again Steve. Forgive me if Im having a blonde moment, but if you blend the gyles then boil, isnt that an entire mash, the same as I already do? i.e. adding the subsequent runnings to the first runnings in the kettle?
What's the difference unless i make a separate beer with each runnings?
Cheers
ADDLED

[Jolum]

I consider 2.5l per kg to be a normal mash, not a stiff one.

Me too. That's my usual ratio

[steve_flack]

It can be that or you can take the separate gyles and combine them. Some brewers boiled the gyles separately and combined them others blended them then boiled.

Tks again Steve. Forgive me if Im having a blonde moment, but if you blend the gyles then boil, isnt that an entire mash, the same as I already do? i.e. adding the subsequent runnings to the first runnings in the kettle?
What's the difference unless i make a separate beer with each runnings?
Cheers
ADDLED

OK. Let's assume you get two worts one about 1.085 and the other around 1.030. You could either take these as two beers or you could blend them in differing proportions to give any beer in between. In Fuller's case they have a number of beers they brew from those two worts ranging between 1.037 for chiswick up to 1.080 ish for golden pride. Fullers obviously sell a lot more London Pride than anything else so they blend to get the 1.044 for that. But from the exact same mash they could blend to get some esb and a bit of chiswick or whatever they want on that day. They can brew more than one beer on any given day from the same mash. Geddit?

[trucker5774]

Does a stiff mash actually produce more unfermentable sugars or just a high gravity wort, I thought the sparge (and the amount of sparging) determined the gravity (along with the boil, of course) assuming the grain bill remains a constant

[Wolfy]

I consider 2.5l per kg to be a normal mash, not a stiff one.

Me too. That's my usual ratio

While 2.5L per kg is suggested in BYOBRA - and no doubt appropriate for British Ales - according to Palmer it's on the stiff side of things, with (if my conversions are correct) 3.1L/kg being the 'ideal' mash ratio and 4.1L/kg defined as a thin mash.

Does a stiff mash actually produce more unfermentable sugars or just a high gravity wort, I thought the sparge (and the amount of sparging) determined the gravity (along with the boil, of course) assuming the grain bill remains a constant

According to JP (see the link above for his logic and reason) it does produce a more unfermentable wort.

[Jim]

A stiff mash (about 2.5L water per kg grain) will give you a less fermentable wort resulting in a sweeter/maltier beer.

While that's true (or at least true according to David Line) I believe that the effect is quite small, certainly much less significant than other factors such as mash temperature and pH.

[steve_flack]

I think Jim's right in saying that other factors have a greater influence.