Infection or dodgy yeast?

[fullclaret]

Evening all. Had my first bad batch experience recently , a clone of HSB I've tried before but this time was not right from the start.

Ingredients were:
pale malt 4600
crystal 350
wheat 30

bramling 30
golding 60
golding(last 15 mins) 25

Wyeast 1335 British.

I did some new calculations on my water having bought a calcium carbonate alkalinity kit from fleabay so felt confident this would be the best yet. My CRS was more exact, and I had less chloride to keep the sweetness in check. Mashing went well, temp was always in range starting at 62oC and gradually increasing and holding at 66oC. Pitched at 20oC and kept fermentation temp constant (thanks to the end of the summer weather). After 12 hours fermentation got going but the smell was different, kind of sharp and a bit burnt rubber. Being the persistent type I kept faith and racked to secondary after a week, then after another week I bottled today. But I had a nagging feeling that something was not right, and now I'm convinced this batch is headed for the sink. I only bottled 30 pints, more as wishful thinking than the usual expectation.

I boiled and cooled outside, could some wild yeast have gotten in and ruined the batch? Or could it have been bad sterilisation? I used sodium metabisulphate as usual, then plenty of rinsing with cold and then boiled / boiling water. I did use frozen water bottles post-boil to help the cold break, as my last 2 batches have had chill haze. Did my best to clean them before dunking in the liquor but didn't want to crack the pastic.

Only other thing that was a bit unusual was the yeast. Starter kit was room-temp warmed to 21oC for 2 days, smacked and then pitched 5 hours later but with no swelling in the packet. Pitched to the 40 pints 24 hours later and fermentation started slowly after about 16 hours.

Any tips as to what went wrong?

FC

[Wolfy]

How does it taste (and smell) now? That's the biggest question.

The fact that the smack-pack did not swell (before you used it) is the first sign of trouble, it's designed to swell to indicate good yeast health and viability, and (if at all possible) should always be given time to swell before it's used (since the pack contains ideal/sterile conditions for the yeast to grow in). Burnt rubber type smells are usually related to yeast autolysis, which could also explain why the pack did not swell and the fermentation started slowly - much of the yeast may have been dead. Did you check the production date on the pack before you used it?

However, if it tastes (and smells) (mostly) fine now, then possibly you just under-pitched a bit, and it's nothing to get overly worried about.

Did you pitch the yeast as soon as the wort was cooled, or did you wait 24 hours to do that? If you waited you may have given wild yeast or bacteria more of a chance to infect your beer.
Various bugs, bacteria, yeasts etc tend to 'live' in household fridges/freeezers, so if you are going to chill/freeze bottles of water and then add them directly to your wort, its always best to sanitize them as best you can (immerse them in your sanitizing solution) - so f that is the only part of your usual procedure that you changed, it may have contributed to your problem.

[coatesg]

I think, if you just pitched the yeast from the smack pack with no starter, then you've likely underpitched. I always make starters (even with the White Labs tubes) to ensure a healthy and large enough yeast population - I'd tend to use about a 1.6 L starter for this kind of beer (grown up in two stages on a stir plate - ~200ml and then up to full size for a Wyeast yeast packet). The 1335 is a great yeast - it drops very quickly and has some fruity flavours, but fairly dry - after making the starter with this yeast, it's easy to crash cool in the fridge to decant off the spent wort and then just pitch the yeast itself on brewday.

Putting the first cooled runnings on the (room temp) yeast on a stir plate for a good hour or so and then pitching tends to give visible signs of a ferment inside 7 hours with this one. I recommend trying Aleman's Southwold ale with this yeast - it's very good.

[Wolfy]

I think, if you just pitched the yeast from the smack pack with no starter, then you've likely underpitched. I always make starters (even with the White Labs tubes) to ensure a healthy and large enough yeast population - I'd tend to use about a 1.6 L starter for this kind of beer (grown up in two stages on a stir plate - ~200ml and then up to full size for a Wyeast yeast packet).

On some old TBN 'Sunday Session' podcasts that feature Chris White (from Whitelabs) he said that (essentially) due to the enormous cell count in yeast packs, that pitching them into starters less than about 2L in size they consume the sugars so quickly that there is (essentially) no cell count growth. Also that since the yeast packs are designed to deliver yeast in 'optimal condition' for fermenting, using smaller sized (or nutrient deficient) starters could actually 'harm' the yeast'. But that (~1L) starters can be used to 'proof' the yeast and help increase the health of the yeast (but not to expect cell count growth) if pitched into your batch of beer on the same day.

Most likely he was talking about ultra-fresh yeast packs, with yeast in top shape, and 'simple starters' without a stir-plate, yeast nutrient additions and the like, but I did find many of the things he (and his brother) suggested interesting and useful (if you use the 'fast forward' button to skip through all the tedious gossip on the podcasts and get to just the relevant stuff).

[fullclaret]

Thanks guys, I'll check out the podcast for some tips. This was my 7th go with wyeast and the second time with 1335 for this recipe and I've been impressed with the results until now and felt it justified the extra cost and effort.

I made a 2l starter and left for 24 hours before pitching straight into the cooled wort. From my notes this yeast didn't do too much after smacking the first time I used it so I wasn't too worried at first. It had over 6 months on the 'best before' and the starter looked and smelt fine.

Hard to describe the taste right now. It's very dry and sour with no malty sweetness at all. The smell is unpleasant, burnt and rubbery. No detectable hops. I've bottled 30 pints as I hadn't the heart to bin it without giving it a final chance, but my head says it's drain fodder.

The frozen bottles do seem likely culprits. I sterilised them, rinsed and dried, froze, then rinsed carefully will boiling water before immersing them in the wort. None of them cracked and leaked, and the wort cooled in record time - 5 x 2l frozen water + trusty copper coil = 20oC in about 5 mins.

Roll-on the winter when my tap water temp will drop below the 20oC I measured it at!

[fullclaret]

Thanks guys, I'll check out the podcast for some tips. This was my 7th go with wyeast and the second time with 1335 for this recipe and I've been impressed with the results until now and felt it justified the extra cost and effort.

I made a 2l starter and left for 24 hours before pitching straight into the cooled wort. From my notes this yeast didn't do too much after smacking the first time I used it so I wasn't too worried at first. It had over 6 months on the 'best before' and the starter looked and smelt fine.

Hard to describe the taste right now. It's very dry and sour with no malty sweetness at all. The smell is unpleasant, burnt and rubbery. No detectable hops. I've bottled 30 pints as I hadn't the heart to bin it without giving it a final chance, but my head says it's drain fodder.

The frozen bottles do seem likely culprits. I sterilised them, rinsed and dried, froze, then rinsed carefully will boiling water before immersing them in the wort. None of them cracked and leaked, and the wort cooled in record time - 5 x 2l frozen water + trusty copper coil = 20oC in about 5 mins.

Roll-on the winter when my tap water temp will drop below the 20oC I measured it at!

[HighHops]

Evening all. Had my first bad batch experience recently , a clone of HSB I've tried before but this time was not right from the start.

I did some new calculations on my water having bought a calcium carbonate alkalinity kit from fleabay so felt confident this would be the best yet.

.............................

Any tips as to what went wrong?

FC

Howdy FC!

Great advice form the yeast experts, that you should take too, but having read your post I would recheck your water calcs and practice the test with the kit. The first few times I used the alkalinity kit my lab technique was poor and i over dosed CRS. The pH was too low and it pulled all of the tannins out of the malt. If your impressed with the results from the 1335 previously but have just started changing your water treatment i wouldn't start a petition against Wyeast, I would have a little think about what I changed last and fine tune that!

[fullclaret]

Thanks HighHops, until now I've been making additions to the water based on the water board's report but wanted to double check as they quoted the alkalinity and CaCO3 to be the same. I ran the test twice and got the same result (give or take a couple of points) so the CRS addition was good, and using Graham's water calculation page my other additions were much more accurate than before. I checked with litmus paper and the Ph was spot on (5.4). The London Pride clone I made the day before (with Wyeast 1968) is promising to be a corker, so it's out with the frozen bottles and I'll leave longer for the smack pack to swell. If I get another that seems dud after 5+ hours I'll send it back before ruining a whole batch. Next time I'll just use some safeale 04 I keep in reserve.

[coatesg]

Most likely he was talking about ultra-fresh yeast packs, with yeast in top shape, and 'simple starters' without a stir-plate, yeast nutrient additions and the like, but I did find many of the things he (and his brother) suggested interesting and useful

Indeed - the white labs should be pitchable direct, but they are often 3-4months old by the time I get them and using the Mr Malty yeast calculator, I get about the same values that I tend to use (I use a stir plate+a few grains of nutrient). The wyeast "propagator" packs have 25million cells (upwards) but again are often a few months old - these are the only ones I have seen in the UK and need a starter even when fresh for pitching in 5 gallons (white labs are typically 3-6 times this amount, but again for fresh vials only).

[Wolfy]

coatesg, sounds like a far from ideal situation, worse than we manage here actually, and that's saying something.

[steve_flack]

The wyeast "propagator" packs have 25million cells (upwards) but again are often a few months old - these are the only ones I have seen in the UK and need a starter even when fresh for pitching in 5 gallons (

Check out BrewUK. They sell the bigger activator packs and give the manufacturing date so you know how old the yeast you're buying is.