Dunkel Weizen

[Lugsy]

Hi all

I tried Erdinger Dunkel Weissebier for the first time a couple of weeks ago in a pub near here (the Imperial Club in Mexborough, they have their own brewery on site and two Erdingers on tap) and really enjoyed it. I harvested some WLP300 yeast from a weizen I brewed about 4 weeks ago and I want to use it in something soon so I was thinking of doing something like the Dunkel.

I don't really want to buy any more malt if I can help it so this is probably going to be a bit off the mark for a real dunkelweizen. The grains I have which may be of use are:

Wheat malt (just over a kilo)
Unmalted wheat (a couple of kilos)
Bohemian pilsner
Munich
Caramunich III
Chocolate
Roasted barley

So will I be able to do anything close to style (or at least pleasant!) with these? What kind of colour am I looking for (I've done some pales and a couple of stouts but nothing in between so no Idea what EBC number I should be aiming for)

Any advice greatly appreciated as always,

Cheers

L

[Zapp Brannigan]

Ok, the bad news is that you dont have enough wheat malt, which is a showstopper. At least 50% of the grist should be malted wheat, and you cant make up for this with the unmalted stuff.

Also, although it isnt so much of a showstopper, you dont really have the right dark grains. The Munich and Caramunich III are ok, but the Choc and roasted barley will give the wrong type of flavour altogether - the sweet/toffeeness of a Dunkelweizen should be smooth, with no burnt notes. This means that dehusked grains like Carafa Special are the order of the day for darkening, with a bit of crystal to give sweetness.

As for EBC, Erdinger Dunkel is pretty dark, so will be at the upper end of the scale. I would personally go anywhere from 30 - 60 for this style, and I bitter to 15-17 EBU with a single addition of Hersbrucker.

If it is of any help, here is my 23 ltr Dunkelweizen recipe:

23 ltrs, ABV 5.3, 45 EBC, 15 IBU

3253g Wheat Malt
1156g Munich Malt
771g Lager Malt
100g Caramalt
200g Crystal Malt
150g Melanoidin Malt
63g Carafa Special III

Mash at 69 degrees for 90 mins/

50g Hallertauer Hersbrucker for 90 mins.

Fermented at 16 degrees with Wyeast 3068.

Hope this helps!

[dave-o]

As above, you need some Carafa and some more wheat malt.

Personally i keep it simple with Dunkel grain bills, roughly:

60% wheat malt
37% Pils
3% Carafa III (or more if you use Carafa I or II)
Tett or haller (H or M) to 15-20 IBUs

Above looks good though.

[leedsbrew]

I'd +1 with dave-o

I have a dunkelweizen in bottle right now and although it is very good, I think next time i'm going to cut some of the caramel malts down. It has a slight belgian dark flavour too it, which I like but I also like the classic dunkelweizen characteristics as well.

My grain bill was

UK Wheat Malt 3.663 kg 64.7 % 2.5 In Mash/Steeped
UK Lager Malt 0.860 kg 15.2 % 0.4 In Mash/Steeped
UK Dark Crystal 0.573 kg 10.1 % 15.4 In Mash/Steeped
German CaraMunich III 0.250 kg 4.4 % 5.0 In Mash/Steeped
German Carahell 0.250 kg 4.4 % 0.9 In Mash/Steeped
German Carafa III 0.063 kg 1.1 % 11.5 In Mash/Steeped

I'd cut the carahell and dark crystal (the origional recipe asked for belgian special B) and go for something closer to dave-0's recipe.

LB

LB

[greenxpaddy]

Lets not get too fussy. I am sure you can generate a decent dark wheat beer with what you have.

2 kilos unmalted wheat 40%
1 kilo malted wheat 20%
1.5 kilos bohemian pilsner 20%
Munich 10%
Caramunich iii 500g 5%
Chocolate malt 500g 5%

How about a decoction mash to get some more caramelisation running through as your struggling with coloured malts?

paddy

[dave-o]

IMO that will be a slightly wheaty stout, not a Dunkel. It'd no doubt be nice though.

[Zapp Brannigan]

+1

I'm sure that would be a nice beer, but it wouldnt be a dunkelweizen.

[TheMumbler]

While it isn't really right I would be less fearful of a bit of chocolate if you like Erdinger Dunkel as I think there is some roastiness in there. However 500g of chocolate is a heck of a lot for a wheat beer. I'd look at 100g or so, 200g tops. I wouldn't put any roasted barley in there.

Assuming 19l you might get away with something like
1kg wheat malt
1kg flaked wheat
2kg lager
100g caramunich 3
100g chocolate
You want the OG to be around 1050
15-20 ibu from hallertauer

You might need to go a bit lower in volume, to get the right OG and I would consider doing a cereal mash for the flaked wheat.

The flaked wheat will probably make it cloudy but that really isn't a problem with a dark wheat beer which is a cloudy style and dark. I haven't run the numbers through qbrew so I might be a bit off, but that is the kind of thing I'd do if I was hell bent on doing a dunkelweiss and had your ingredients. For preference I'd buy more wheat malt, ditch the flaked and use carafa or chocolate wheat for the roast flavours.

Oh and watch out for it coming out of the top of the fermenter, all the dark wheat and rye beers I've done (only 3 I think) have thrown up a crazy head of foam.

[Lugsy]

Yes, I was worried I didn't have the right malts for a Dunkelweizen, I was really trying to find a good use for the WLP300 but it looks like I'll have to put it on the back burner for now until I need a big enough order from the malt miller to justify the postage. Another three or four brews and I'll be able to go for it, maybe a couple of stupidly hoppy pales and a smoked porter coming up soon instead!

Mumbler - your post came up as I was replying and yes, I thought the Erdinger had a bit of a roasted taste to it, that's what made me think using chocolate or roasted might be OK. I do think I'm just too short on the wheat malt (along with other grains) to try this yet though

Thanks for the help though guys, it'll come in very handy soon

L

[greenxpaddy]

It would be helpful for posters to add their locations. Who knows someone might be able to help them out with some specialty malts. invariably we have certain malt sitting left overs.

where are you lugsy

[Lugsy]

That's a good idea, I've always got something lying around that I bought for a particular beer and isn't getting used.

I'm in South Yorkshire, between Rotherham and Barnsley. I'll add it to my profile now.

[greenxpaddy]

Here's the dunkel thats just reaching FG. Its been in FV 6.5 days at 16C for 5 of those....risen to 20C for the last 2 days. i can't believe the speed of this Erdinger yeast at a lower temperature. I'll be priming with golden caster sugar to 4 volumes CO2 i think....

Acht Jahren Dunkel

Date: 9th July 2011


Fermentable Colour lb: oz Grams Ratio
Dark Wheat Malt 15 EBC 6 lbs. 9.8 oz 3000 grams 34.9%
Flaked Wheat 0 EBC 3 lbs. 15.4 oz 1800 grams 20.9%
Bohemian Pils Malt 4 EBC 2 lbs. 10.3 oz 1200 grams 14%
Munich Malt 20 EBC 2 lbs. 10.3 oz 1200 grams 14%
Carapils Malt 4 EBC 1 lbs. 8.7 oz 700 grams 8.1%
Caramunich III 120 EBC 0 lbs. 10.5 oz 300 grams 3.5%
Carafa III 1200 EBC 0 lbs. 7.0 oz 200 grams 2.3%
Belgian Aromatic Malt 50 EBC 0 lbs. 7.0 oz 200 grams 2.3%


Hop Variety Type Alpha Time lb: oz grams Ratio

Hallertauer Mittlefruh Whole 4.3 % 60 mins 0 lbs. 2.0 oz 56 grams 50%
Hallertauer Mittlefruh Whole 4.3 % 5 mins 0 lbs. 2.0 oz 56 grams 50%
Protafloc 2/3 tablet crushed 10 mins

Water treatment of 48.5L plus half Campden tablet.

Salt 0g
Gypsum 1.5g
CaCl 4.5g
Epsom 0.3g
Chalk 0.7g


Final Volume: 35 Litres
Original Gravity: 1.049
Final Gravity: 1.013
Alcohol Content: 4.9% ABV
Total Liquor: 49.0 Litres
Mash Liquor: 21.5 Litres
Mash Efficiency: 75 %
Bitterness: 19.0133707932115 EBU
Colour: 78 EBC

Mash temp 66.7C 0mins
64.9C 90 mins [lost 2C]

Sparge water 79C. Topped up then fly.

Preboil 1039 @ 40C = 1045
Added 1.7L boiling water at 15 mins - can't fit it all in my Buffalo 40L!

OG 1049 @ 22C = 1050


YEAST SCHEDULE

20ml thick slurry recovered Erdinger weissbier (pale) yeast.

500ml well aerated starter for 4 hrs, shaken every 20 mins.
Aroma – strong grapefruit.


Wort cooled to 22C in 50 mins.

Yeast pitched with whole starter

12 hrs later – Day 1 17C

5 days at 16/17C
2 days at 10C - 1014

Whats the best serving temperature for a dunkel?

[leedsbrew]

Nice! 4vols might be a little excessive! I carb mine to 3.5-3.75 and try are VERY effervescent!

I like the aromatic malt addition!

[greenxpaddy]

Well Ican;t take credit for that. I ran out of one of the malts and it was the next best nearest thing to make up quantities!

They recommend 4 vol at http://kotmf.com/ but I guess it depends what temperature you are serving at??? I do like the crispness that a well chilled well carbonated wit gives . Am guessing a weizen is similar???

[leedsbrew]

On steve flack's beeralchemy software you get he option to set the carbonation 'to style' 3.8 vs for wheat beers so what's a couple if decimals eh? Lol