couple of questions from a AG beginner

[YorkshireTiger]

Evening all, my mate got me into AG brewing last autumn, varied results so far but damn good fun trying! Stumbled across this website a few weeks so have been trying to absorb as many pointers as possible.

Just hoped for a bit advice with a couple of points.

1) When I do a pale ale with just MO grain it generally works out ok and really quite pleasant though I say so myself, even my pal who's a bit of a grumpy old git and my missus, who doesnt generally like to complement me in case I get too big for my boots has said its ok. However Ive tried a couple of stouts, a brown ale and a bitter and it just seems that when I add draker grain there quite an unpleasant aftertaste. Have you chaps got any ideas? I spoke with the guy from the Worcester Hop Shop the other day (great prices I'll be putting an order in soon) who suggested it may be the water (very hard here in Hull) and suggested Campden tablets which I will give a go. Does this make sense given that the Pale Ale is always ok? Ive looked in the relevant forum section, where a few people mention CRS, what is this?

2) Should I use a different yeast for the darker beers?- Ive always used the S04 in the blue packets.

3) If anyone can help with the above, and I gain the confidence to try a darker beer again - (isnt it heartbreaking when you invest best part of a full day into brewing day and then carefully nurture it for further weeks and it ends up crxp? )- Id love to do a stout with a choc/vanilla flavour. I tried putting some Bournville cocoa powder into the boil of my last stout but got a load of sludge at the bottom of my burco. Could I put the chocolate and some vanilla flavouring into the FV when I run the wort off from the boiler? i.e its presence wouldnt inhint the yeast would it? Or would it simply sink to the bottom.

Apologies for the bombardment, Im not the most practical person so in a sense probably not an ideal guy to brew beer, but I do like it! Thanks in advance for any help you could offer!

[soupdragon]

Hi and welcome

The 1st thing that springs to mind with the dark beers is the quantity of roasted grain you might be using. I've found that sometimes even moderate use can impart a very bitter/heavily roasted flavour. I've just done a Timmy Taylor Landlord clone and can taste the 30g of black malt that's in there so I'd suggest cutting back slightly or trying different types of darker malts.
The only yeasts I've used are us-05 for my light hoppy beers and s-04 for everything else. There's quite a selection of liquid yeasts available and you can match them up more closely to the flavour profile of the beer type that you're brewing. Having said that, I've never used them but someone will advise you better than I can. S-04 will make a very drinkable beer for you and is a good one to start off with as it will provide consistent results

Cheers Tom

[YorkshireTiger]

cheers for the tips Tom, I'll defintely cut back on the darker malts then, always use fresh stuff so probably more likely the quantities Ive been using than quality. looking forward to giving it another bash at the weekend, thanks Matt.

[bigdave]

1) campden tablets will clear the chlorine from tap water but won't do anything else as far as hard water treatment is concerned. Best thing to do is get one of those aquarium water testing kits (the name escapes me) and find out what's in the water you're brewing with and how to make it perfect. It's possible that your water lends itself perfectly to pale ales but needs some additives for anything else. Have a good rake through the forum, there's absolutely loads about water treatment! You may be lucky enough to find another brewer in Hull who's already tested the water and can help you with which additives you need.

2) S-04 is a perfectly acceptable all rounder for brewing. Don't worry about liquid yeasts etc... till you've sorted your water treatment.

3) chocolate flavours are added with speciality malts in the mash rather than coco powder. Maybe buy a brewing book or have a look at other users recipes to try and get a feeling for how different grains and hops will influence your brews.

Good luck!

[soupdragon]

cheers for the tips Tom, I'll defintely cut back on the darker malts then, always use fresh stuff so probably more likely the quantities Ive been using than quality. looking forward to giving it another bash at the weekend, thanks Matt.

Hi Matt

The fact you can make your paler beers without issue tells me that there's nothing wrong with your method. When you use darker malts I tend to start off with a it less than I might really need and if it needs more I'll up it for my next one.

Cheers Tom

[staplefordbill]

Best thing to do is get one of those aquarium water testing kits

Salifert kH - http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalo ... CC8Q8wIwAA

Excess alkalinity is more of a problem with pale beers than darker beers though, so trying chocolate malt instead of black malt is the first thing to do.

[Tom_D]

Welcome to the forum YT! As the others have pointed out, it seems that your issue may be to do with water but also with the quantity of dark grains. I would look at the latter before trying to mess with the former. What sort of percentages of speciality grains are you using? To start with, I'd recommend 90% pale and a mixture of chocolate and roasted barley for the remainder.

For a vanilla stout, add more chocolate than roasted barley and add a little crystal (say 3%) for sweetness. Once the beer has finished fermenting, rack it onto a couple of vanilla pods in a secondary fermenter for a few days before bottling. I soak my vanilla pods in bourbon for a week first as it extracts more flavour.

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

Tom.

[126mark]

YorkshireTiger Re your query about vanilla flavouring in darker beers.

I recently brewed a raspberry stout - added a couple of pounds pasteurised raspberries (in a mashing bag) to 13 litres stout. I left it to fester for a week then bottled. It's ok - very strong raspberry flavour. There's a bit of an after-taste (which may just be the target hops coming through). I'm going to leave it until Christmas to see if it improves. Either way, it's going to get drunk.

[Andy__]

When making dark beer I get an unpleasant taste after the beers finished fermenting and cleared with finnings. However after a couple of weeks that flavour has mellowed.

My conclusion is that my darker beers cannot be rushed into a glass as I can with a pale ale or IPA.

I dont know how long you have given your beer to condition before you try it, but I find that conditioning a little longer helps nearly all beer. Good Luck.

[YorkshireTiger]

thanks for the tips guys. I wont worry about my yeast at all, will probabley stick Campden into the water next time but not worry too much about the water hardness as yet. I was using about 500g of speciality grain with 5 1/2 kgs of Maris Otter for my darker beers, will probably cut back a bit on the black malt/roasted barley next time (or just increase the MO to make a 'monster' stout!) . Just one other thing - could the odd taste on darker beers be due to the 'cut-off' on my Burco Boiler?? Its a new one that wont allow a proper vigourous boil. I looked up on the forum about how to bypass it and the bloody thing isnt working at all now. I'll get it sorted when have chance to have a proper look, but could a less than properly rolling boil have more of an impact on darker beers than pale ones? Thanks again for the advice submitted so far, good to feel welcome!

[greenxpaddy]

I suggest reading this...its rather complex but that is what brewing is if you want to perfect styles.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html

[Eric]

thanks for the tips guys....................................

I was using about 500g of speciality grain with 5 1/2 kgs of Maris Otter for my darker beers, will probably cut back a bit on the black malt/roasted barley next time (or just increase the MO to make a 'monster' stout!) ...............................

Just one other thing - could the odd taste on darker beers be due to the 'cut-off' on my Burco Boiler?? Its a new one that wont allow a proper vigourous boil................
could a less than properly rolling boil have more of an impact on darker beers than pale ones?

That recipe hasn't too great a proportion of darker grains but if all that is for a 23 litre brew, it should have a lengthy period to condition else it would have the potential to be a bit fierce.

If you think your pale beers are OK now, wait until you get your boiler working properly, you need a rolling boil.

[beernsurfing]

If you try that, and still get an unpleasant flavour, try adding your dark malts in the last 15 mins of the mash. I have been doing this for a few years, as my dark beers were always harsh and astringent. Since adding them late in the mash, i get all the yummy roast flavours, without the acrid/burnt character. I just use the same amount of dark malt. My .02c

[126mark]

I live in a hard water area and had a similar problem with my boiler (after about 6 brews). Your element needs to be really clean (you may be tripping out the cut off). I soaked mine in citric acid to clean it up and now scrub it with one of those kitchen sponge / scrubbers after every brew. Not had a problem since (I use one of those plastic bucket constructions with a kettle element and thermostat).

[critch]

my chocolate and vanilla stout won peoples choice at last years camra winter ales festival in manchester. you can use bournville coca for the chocolate flavour put it in late (last 10 mins or so)mix it with hot wort before introducing it to the boiler.

vanilla should be added to the fermenter or secondry(i add to the secondry at racking) i use vanilla extract. try few vanilla pods in a drop of vodka(enough to cover em) to sterilise it overnight before kegging/casking and throw the tincture into the keg/ cask

the same beers up for judging for the champion winter ale this year so i must be doing something right

as stated id look at dark grain ratios and water profiles for any unwanted tastes and s-o4 is great for dark beers.