Further stupid questions- Direct scorn this way.

[IanF78]

Quick stupid question for the experts. I picked up a few of the UBrew starter kits, in Tesco, just because they were selling them off for £7 and it was worth it just to get the extra FV, hydrometer, steriliser, barrel clip, syphon etc etc, regardless of the fact the actual kits were Lager.

Gave one to my little brother, as a cheap way into it (with the proviso that he not give up until he'd done a good ale kit as well. If the Lager turns out rubbish, he's to call it a practice run)

So now, i've got 2 single-can lager kits left, but i'm not really fussed about making a lager.

It's a pain in the arse to bottle, I've got 2 pressure barrels and no bottles, and i prefer an ale anyway.

So, here's the question; Is it possible to use 2 lager kits, in some sort of simple way, and get a passable ale-type drink?

I realise there's a bitterness issue, in using the 2 kits with hop extract, each designed to impart hoppiness to a full batch, but would doubling up the EBUs of 2 lager kits (stated as 25-35 EBU on the packaging) be a disaster, or could it turn out ok?

For info, i'm drinking a John Bull IPA, brewed slightly short to about 21l, using a kilo of Munton's kit enhancer. It's bitter-ish, but not too much.

Being a bit of a noob (I've thus far done 3 Wherry, a Coopers Real Ale, and 2 John Bull IPAs, one of which was an unmitigated disaster of my own making, and have currently got a speculative cheap Wilko's own Copper Bitter and an experimental TC on the go) I'm probably miles off with this, but i was thinking along these lines;

2x Ubrew Lager Kit
500g Medium Spraymalt
Maybe make it up a little bit long, at 25l or so, if that'll help balance it out.
One (or two, to be safe) of the kit yeast (any opinions on whether the packets of Gervin English Ale Yeast that Wilkos sell are any better than the average kit yeast, while we're on?)
Brew at about 20c for 14 days, barrel as an ale.

So, your opinions please, would this be worth bothering with (for the price of £4, for the spraymalt)

Nothing ventured, nothing gained, they say, but is it a fool's errand?

Am i better just making them up per instructions (maybe with 500g Brewing sugar and 500g Light Spraymalt) and having 80 pints of something resembling lager.

As ever, thanks for your input.

Ian

[Cully]

Could you boil up some grains and add the product to the fv like Big Secue did here?

Grain Addition

[IanF78]

Thanks for the reply. Not able to watch the clip at the mo, will definitely check that out later;

It's not something i've done before, I've only done kits, and i'm typically working with what i can get at Wilko's/Tesco, Kit enhancer/SDME and the like.

Presumably, what you're saying is, the ingredients in the tins are unsuitable for making into something with an ale-like flavour, without adding some malt to balance the double bitterness? Something that presumably can't be done with SDME.

What would you suggest, I don't know much about the various types of malt, but a quick google search throws up a variety of lovely-looking stuff, which seems to be quite cheap, so maybe it's worth a go.

Maybe it's a good opportunity to try something new, a step toward all-grain, which i appreciate is probably where it's at, for the purist.

[timbo41]

I think maybe using the two cans could work if you make some speciality grain and /or hop additions. Am no expert , but have just put on a Toucan lager using Youngs definitive Lager and a John Bull lager kit( Wilkos bin ends!!). Not knowing either kit but figuring I couldnt do any harm., I boiled 50g of progress hops for 40 mins in 5 litres adding 25g liberty for last 5 mins. I'm sure the purists would go but I'm hoping for , at worse, a better tasting lager at best a" hoppy" light coloured ale. Would have added some crystal malt or caragold(20 min steep) if I had any. Had good results before with these malts. Deffo go for a decent yeast rather than kit yeasts. This sort of method is quite similar to extract brewing without the extended boils with its "hot breaks" etc

[IanF78]

From the basic understanding i have of it, I'd have thought that 2 cans in one brew would have sufficient hop/bitterness (though not comparable to actually steeping/dry-hopping with extra hops), but would need more grain to balance that out, like some crystal malt, as you mentioned (thanks for mentioning some of the types i should be looking for). Perhaps i've got that all wrong though.

I was hoping the addition of some medium spraymalt and a slightly longer brew at 25l might thin out the bitterness and balance it out a bit. If i'm wrong about the amount of hop bitterness in the 2 cans though, i'm certain to be wrong about this too!

[far9410]

Why not just use one kit, add 1kg of DME, get some nice aroma hops(cascade for instance) make a hop tea by boiling some of these for 5 mins, then steep for 10 to 15. Could be quite nice and if it's not to your liking you've still got one kit left

[cellone]

I would be stunned if the kit yeast is lager yeast so should be suitable for an ale and it won't hurt to double up.

[simon50]

From the basic understanding i have of it, I'd have thought that 2 cans in one brew would have sufficient hop/bitterness (though not comparable to actually steeping/dry-hopping with extra hops), but would need more grain to balance that out, like some crystal malt, as you mentioned (thanks for mentioning some of the types i should be looking for). Perhaps i've got that all wrong though.

I was hoping the addition of some medium spraymalt and a slightly longer brew at 25l might thin out the bitterness and balance it out a bit. If i'm wrong about the amount of hop bitterness in the 2 cans though, i'm certain to be wrong about this too!

hello, bitterness doesn't really work that way, because of the extra malt of using 2 cans, the perceived bitterness when drinking won't need "thinning" out.

If you use both cans and the 500g of medium malt and brew to 25 litres your looking at about 5.1% ABV ish.

the medium malt will help a little, but will only account for 12.2% of fermentables, that's still 12.2% closer to being an "ale".

if your not really bothered, i'd just lump the 3 together and brew to 23(for 5.5%) or 25 litres using both packs of the yeast and see what you come out with, 25 litres isn't really that hard to get through, you can just hand it out if particularly like it.

i personally wouldn't bother buying additions (hops/malt etc) if your "trying to get rid of them" (and as you mentioned, and most people ignored; not available where you shop).

[IanF78]

Cellone, you're spot on, I believe it's a bog standard ale yeast, so I guess you're effectively brewing a lager flavoured ale anyhow . Simon, that's a good answer, right that I dont generally shop where such additions are available, and that it's probably not worth wasting good additions on. When you say the Sdme will help a little, do you suggest ramping up the extra spraymalt a bit? would maybe add something in body and abv, and perhaps a bit more of a malty flavour.

Thanks for explaining the bitterness thing.. I'd read that using 2 single can kits would result in twice the bitterness, but I can see how having double the liquid malt would offset that. that does explain others' suggestions of extra hops too.

I guess what I could hope to achieve is a passable pale ale.. I'm sure i'd get through it if it's drinkable.

Thanks again for all the tips.

[simon50]

hello again, people are suggesting the additions to "make it better", it would well be worth doing so if you wanted to invest the money and effort.

as a kit has already been hopped ("bittered") by the manufacturer, people usually will try to just impart flavour to them with hops as opposed to ramping up bitterness, the difference in flavour when you do add hops is a significant. You only need to really be messing about with hops for bitterness if you are doing your own from scratch with unhopped extract or using a vast amount of extra malt with a kit. when you use hops for flavouring, it does produce a small amount of added bitterness as a by-product of the process though.

although alot of "lager" kits come with an "ale yeast", it is one that has been selected for mimicking the "clean" taste of a lager and will not be as useful if you are wanting say a "fruity" ale. The lager kits come with the ale yeast so they can be fermented more easily and at a higher temperature.

a lager kit will also obviously be made from light coloured lager malt, whereas a ale kit will contain darker and more often different types of grain.

because you have a lager kit, this is why you would need a lot more additions to make it into an "ale" ale (god knows where a "lagery ale" begins and a "aley lager" ends though ).

it would be easy enough to do, but it would probably involve you buying extra grain, malt, hops and yeast then having to steep/boil said hops and grain with a simple recipe (basically making an "extract beer") if you are after very tasty end product. you have a lot of lager malt and some less then desirable yeast for your "ale recipe" as it stands if you think of it that way.

it's entirely up to you but if your not really that bothered then i would just lump them together for an alcoholic drink at the end.

[IanF78]

I see your point, so the simplest thing would be to lump it all together, maybe with a different yeast. I mentioned the one Wilko's sell, which i'm sure is far from ideal, but perhaps it's a bit better or more suited to what i'm trying to achieve than the supplied yeast.

I think if i'm going to spend time, effort, and money on extract, hops etc, it'd be more worthwhile to do that to a second batch of an ale kit i've already done and thought worth doing again. Put some additions in there, for comparison, and to end up with something much better. Without having much of a clue about these things, it's probably too big an ask to make a worthwhile change to this lager kit, whereas small additions to an already decent ale will probably reap more noticeable improvements.

I'll go with lumping it all together and see what happens, nowt to lose, since they were next to free anyhow. I've got an ale that looks ready for the barrel, so will have an FV free in the next couple of days.

Next project will be to seek out a LHBS when time and money allows, and pick up some grain/hops to have a go with. I enjoyed the Coopers Real Ale i did recently, and it seemed like a nice base for that sort of experiment.

Cheers

[cellone]

god knows where a "lagery ale" begins and a "aley lager" ends though .

When you add the yeast

[simon50]

god knows where a "lagery ale" begins and a "aley lager" ends though .

When you add the yeast

so your saying a stout with no pilsner/lager malt, fermented at a high temperature, with no cold conditioning, using a lager yeast would be a "lager" then ?

[cellone]

god knows where a "lagery ale" begins and a "aley lager" ends though .

When you add the yeast

so your saying a stout with no pilsner/lager malt, fermented at a high temperature, with no cold conditioning, using a lager yeast would be a "lager" then ?

Why would you do that?

I would say that alot of the lager likey kits are closer to a light ale or blonde than a lager, but change considerably when you swop the yeast.

[IanF78]

Well based on that theory, I should get something close to what i'm after then, especially if I use a normal ale yeast instead of the kit yeast. I'm going to give it a go today, so will report back how it goes for anyone who's interested. If I can find some hops too, i'm tempted to try that, but not sure i'll have any luck there.