Time to Stand Up for English Hops

If you have a hop related question about International Bittering Units or alpha acid, post it here!
Post Reply
User avatar
seymour
It's definitely Lock In Time
Posts: 6390
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:51 pm
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by seymour » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:30 pm

Hogarth wrote:...I've had so many disappointing evenings recently in craft beer bars, sipping yet another glass of jumped-up grapefruit juice and wishing I was at the King's Head with a nice pint of Adnams. The definition of 'craft beer' these days seems to be any beer that's made from pale malt, Nottingham yeast, and some wacky new hop from New Zealand.
I am SO, SO glad to hear an Englishman say that. As an American who loves American beer as much as the next guy, I feel kinda bad constantly downplaying Chico yeast and Cascades hops on these forums.

It's just that, as I've stated so many times, you UK brewers taught us how to brew, and despite all odds, you've successfully kept intact many centuries of brewing history, locale-specific barley cultivars, malting techniques, mashing techniques, hops cultivars and growth habits and usage, and highly unique historical yeast strains. I hate to see all those babies thrown out with the bath water in a rush to clone Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, etc. It's a good beer, but probably not as good and complex as Adnams Broadside or Fullers London Porter.

I believe you guys still have a lot of things figured out better than us. There's nothing wrong with--correction: there is a lot right with--a "common" 4% ABV brown beer with layers and layers of aroma and flavour complexity: malty-sweet, caramel, toffee, nuts, apricot, plum, black cherry, occasional banana, orange marmalade, chocolate, coffee, toast, balanced by perfumey/tangy/earthy/citrusy/floral/resiny hops and a smooth, creamy, full-bodied, bready, chewy mouthfeel and lingering bittersweet aftertaste.

Anyone familiar with my brewing methodology (madness?) knows I often experiment simply for the sake of experimenting, like the rest of us rogue Americans (and you guys should feel more free to do so as well.) BUT, there is much to be said for proud tradition, as well. We've been talking lately about how English brewers vehemently rejected some cool painstakingly-English-bred hops such as Bullion and Brewer's Gold, which are only now, nearly 100 years later being rediscovered. BUT on the other hand, it's that same English stubborness/steadfastness that protected the old landraces such as Fuggles and Goldings upon which so many modern cultivars are based (and in many ways, still fall short.) Get your hands on as much of our crazy beer as you can, and please enjoy, but stop feeling like you have anything to apologize for with your own offerings.

When given the yeast choice between Chico (US-05) or Whitbread-B (S-04) of the Fullers strain, keep choosing Whitbread or Fullers. Even Nottingham would be more faithful. When given the choice between Cascade or Golding or Challenger, keep considering Golding or Challenger. You see what I mean. And for the record, I've had John Smith Extra Smooth Bitter, apparently the bottom of your barrel, and bland and counterfeit as it is, it's still a vastly better beer than our Bud/Miller/Coors swill.

Done ranting for now. Taking a deep calming breath.

User avatar
scuppeteer
Under the Table
Posts: 1512
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:32 pm
Location: Brenchley, Kent (Birthplace of Fuggles... or is it?)

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by scuppeteer » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:43 pm

seymour wrote: I've had John Smith Extra Smooth Bitter, apparently the bottom of your barrel, and bland and counterfeit as it is, it's still a vastly better beer than our Bud/Miller/Coors
Careful Seymour, people have been banned from the Forum for lessor offences! :lol:

But I do agree it is still better than the other abonimation breweries you have mentioned.

As for the old hops watch this space over the next couple of years! :)
Dave Berry


Can't be arsed to keep changing this bit, so, drinking some beer and wanting to brew many more!

Sir, you are drunk! Yes madam, and you are ugly, but in the morning I shall be sober! - WSC

User avatar
Dennis King
Telling everyone Your My Best Mate
Posts: 4228
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:52 pm
Location: Pitsea Essex

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by Dennis King » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:15 am

Well written Seymour, I've been trying quite a few new world hops in the last few years. At first I thought wow this is the way forward but now I'm starting to wonder am I making better beers now than several years back when I used Goldings, Fuggles Challenger and the rest.

User avatar
Hogarth
Under the Table
Posts: 1793
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:30 am
Location: Brixton, London

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by Hogarth » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:28 pm

seymour wrote: ... malty-sweet, caramel, toffee, nuts, apricot, plum, black cherry, occasional banana, orange marmalade, chocolate, coffee, toast, balanced by perfumey/tangy/earthy/citrusy/floral/resiny hops and a smooth, creamy, full-bodied, bready, chewy mouthfeel and lingering bittersweet aftertaste.
Right, that's it. I'm off to the pub. Your eloquence will be my undoing, Seymour.

De-Geert

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by De-Geert » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:56 pm

I find it very strange to stimulate brewers to limit themselves to certain ingredients. Is that a new type of Reinheitsgebot?
And why? To protect certain hopgrowers or the English hop growing industry?
Maybe they should just stand up and compete.

Dr. Dextrin

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:59 am

De-Geert wrote:I find it very strange to stimulate brewers to limit themselves to certain ingredients. Is that a new type of Reinheitsgebot?
And why? To protect certain hopgrowers or the English hop growing industry?
Maybe they should just stand up and compete.
Yes, that would be strange. But I think people here would like to see more English hops, not exclusively English hops. So I see no problem with extolling their virtues in the hope that the balance might shift a little.

I don't think this is about protecting producers. If my favourite hops were produced outside England, I'd still happily buy them, and I'm pretty sure the big brewers would too.

User avatar
seymour
It's definitely Lock In Time
Posts: 6390
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:51 pm
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by seymour » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:28 am

Dr. Dextrin wrote:
De-Geert wrote:I find it very strange to stimulate brewers to limit themselves to certain ingredients. Is that a new type of Reinheitsgebot?
And why? To protect certain hopgrowers or the English hop growing industry?
Maybe they should just stand up and compete.
Yes, that would be strange. But I think people here would like to see more English hops, not exclusively English hops. So I see no problem with extolling their virtues in the hope that the balance might shift a little.

I don't think this is about protecting producers. If my favourite hops were produced outside England, I'd still happily buy them, and I'm pretty sure the big brewers would too.
Yeah, I didn't mean it that way. I understand the excitement about new and novel ingredients, brew with whatever you can obtain which interests you, go hog-wild if you want. I'm not saying every English ale must only contain Fuggles and Goldings, yesterday, today and forever. And you're right, all growers and all cultivars should be able to prove their own worth in the open market. I'm just saying if they all now only contain Cascades, Centennial plus maybe the NZ flavor-of-the-month, it will quickly become very bland and same-y, just in a different way than before and much proud tradition may be lost in the process.

User avatar
seymour
It's definitely Lock In Time
Posts: 6390
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:51 pm
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by seymour » Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:32 pm

seymour wrote:
orlando wrote:Does Hieronymous say anything about the influence (or not) of where hops are grown or is it just pretentious French b**locks?
Yeah, he definitely touches on ways the soil/cimate/water/growing conditions impact the profile. That's not bullocks at all. For instance, even the true Fuggles and Goldings transplanted in British Columbia, Canada, took on distinctive American hop characteristics.
Image
More food for thought:
Just yesterday, while updating my recipe database, I realized something interesting about one of my recent favorite beers: Schlafly Yakima Wheat. I knew this was a delicious beer, I knew I couldn't buy enough to quench my craving last summer, and I knew it was mainly because of the unique hoppiness. Hmmm, Yakima, huh? Must be a complex blend of proprietary American hops bred and grown in America, right? Nope.

What I didn't know is this: It turns out this beer contained only one hop, Challenger. Yes it was grown in Yakima valley, Washington state, USA, but I'm telling you, it wasn't overbearing grapefruity American hoppiness I was drawn to, it was classic (albeit amplified) English-style orange-marmalade/flowery/resiny/earthy characteristics.

Hey, here's another example of you guys giving away the shop! You created Brewer's Gold and Bullion, which US brewers loved but they never caught on in the UK. I know you haven't tasted this particular beer, but I assure you, it's living proof you could brew your favorite low-key English ale recipe with 100% Challenger hops, bred and grown in the UK, and it'll be something very special. Schlafly used the Chico yeast strain, but you could use Nottingham which is nearly as neutral but with a tiny bit of English character intact. Someone please take me up on this, you won't be disappointed. :)
Image

User avatar
Hanglow
Under the Table
Posts: 1399
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:24 pm

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by Hanglow » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:23 pm

Coniston Bluebird is 100% challenger I think, it's a great beer on cask. I'm looking forward to brewing it for the first time when I get enough free time

User avatar
Jocky
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:50 pm
Location: Epsom, Surrey, UK

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by Jocky » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:56 am

I've discovered Challenger is a wonderful hop - plenty of flavour without being too in your face. Recently did a blond beer that used challenger for bittering and a combination of challenger and willamette to finish, and it's a perfect combination of rounded, lasting bitterness and tasty hops.

I guess the only thing might be that your Yakima valley beer may well have used American grown Challenger, and the difference in climate, soil and agriculture between the US and UK has a big effect on the final hop character.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

critch

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by critch » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:41 pm

seymour wrote:. There's a very good chance your Cascades were grown in the UK, ...
theres actually very little chance of that theres only a few experimental hectares of cascade in the uk according to paul and will from farams, the results have not been encouraging, ive used some they were massively weak in aroma and aa content in comparrison to the majority of us crops(4.4 alpha, us currently last nz cascade i got was 10.7! will described it as us cascades on steroids, a little went a long way!) so im all in with orlando on the terroir comment

got to agree with the current feel challenger is a decent hop, good when mixed with goldings admirals better imo the new wave of english experimentals are pretty interesting on the whole too

still though my taste goes toward the wonderful us, nz and aussie beauties that are around now, and im sorry but imho they wipe the floor with majority of uk hops, if i look to my sales then ive got to go with em too they outsell the more trad stuff sometimes 10-1, and i create all my beers with the same love, care and research so its not like im throwing the uk hop recipes together the majority of people buying micro brewery beer in my area want the more flavour intense profile of the new world hops
Last edited by critch on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
seymour
It's definitely Lock In Time
Posts: 6390
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:51 pm
Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico, USA
Contact:

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by seymour » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:47 pm

Jocky wrote:...I guess the only thing might be that your Yakima valley beer may well have used American grown Challenger, and the difference in climate, soil and agriculture between the US and UK has a big effect on the final hop character.
Yes it was grown in our Yakima Valley, but now I'm making the contrary point. In this case at least, the origin didn't make nearly as big a difference as you'd expect. My last brew contained UK Challenger, and possessed the exact same hop characteristics. I'm obsessed with hops: grow 'em, cross-breed 'em, and brew 'em, and I honestly couldn't tell a difference between the US and UK grown Challenger hops, on their own or in the beer. I believe our Yakima growers decided to grow Challenger, and Schlafly chose to brew with Challenger, because of the preexisting excellent characteristics of your Challenger.

raiderman

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by raiderman » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:30 am

Drank my English Imperial last night. Ok but not stunning 400g, all late addition and post boil in a nice pale base and no wow factor, its settled nicely and doesn't have that huge resiny taste that some beers have, but whilst my big Citra is almost perfumed, this is quite low aroma.I might repeat the experiment because my belgian ish take with lots of lager hops came out better, but I'dv'e expected something more from fuggles and holdings

wilsoa11111

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by wilsoa11111 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:10 pm

raiderman, cant help but wonder if u needed to dry hop, esp with a beer like that blowing off so much co2.
As the books suggest alot of aroma can be lost in fermentation... esp the votatile oils, lager hops i suspect are less volatile as designed to cope well with long maturation before sampling where aroma could be lost also...

greenxpaddy

Re: Time to Stand Up for English Hops

Post by greenxpaddy » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:40 pm

I've done lots of pales with trendy hops in the last month.( Those beers everyone is looking for apparently. )They really don't set my taste buds alive....so I have regressed right back to eastern europe for the next few brews. Plus my last two uk ales have been absolutely stunning with boring old Challenger and EKG.

Is it all in the mind I ask? Can you be a mild lover and like a US IPA or are they too much poles apart without being a pschizophrenic?

Post Reply