For hop nerds only!

[orlando]

Found an interesting paper on dry hopping, with some findings that I thought would stimulate some discussion around science rather than anecdote; for a change.

Little snippet to get the juices flowing:

"The results showed that hop flavor from dry hopping can be readily achieved with much shorter contact time than the current 4-12 day industry practice."

[jaroporter]

yeah i've ended up dryhopping for just a weekend a few occasions, and reckon that does fine. not enough difference to worry about in any case. the lack of flavours is far more noticable when the hop bag used is too small, etc.

[Jocky]

That paper is ridiculously interesting for me.

Brownie points for orlando.

[barry44]

slightly off topic but what is a general quantity of hops to use when dry hopping?

Does the AA of the hop have anything to do with this?

[jaroporter]

you could use little as 0,5g/l for a light bitter, or over 4g/l for an aipa, or the other way round and anything inbetween for anything but there's a ballpark. AAs aren't important, or at least negligable i believe, at dry hopping temperatures

[AdyG]

Brilliant Thesis.... thanks for sharing! I don't think I will need any more information on dry hopping after reading this!

[seymour]

Commercial brewers interviewed in the For The Love of Hops book state that our policy of waiting until secondary fermentation for fear of blowing-away the essential aromas is also a myth. They dry-hop right away, simultaneous with active fermentation, not simply because "time is money" but because they're learning that many of the desired benefits result from fermenting the actual hops too. Very interesting.

[dcq1974]

Yep +1 Seymour
I have had great effects from dry hopping after the initial rigourous fermentation has subsided (usually 24 - 48 hours after pinching the yeast).

The smell was fantastic in the finished brew (using Bobek and Summit mix)

[phatboytall]

Wow, loving the idea of dry hopping whilst fermenting, I hate secondaries!

My brew has been fermenting for 4 days now...might throw some in tonight.

Does AA not count in dry hopping then? I always used high alpha hops like columbus and citra.

[seymour]

Does AA not count in dry hopping then? I always used high alpha hops like columbus and citra.

No, Alpha Acid pecentages don't really matter when it comes to dry-hopping. The AA% primarily indicates a hops bittering potential via isomerization during a lengthy boil. Hops have other attributes which are much more important in the cooler fermentation temperature range, such as essential oils, and the ratios between certain flavour precursors which are only beginning to become better understood.

[Padalac]

That's not necessarily true Seymour. Try dry hop side by side with same quantities of a low alpha and high alpha and you'll see the difference. High alpha hops tend to have more of everything, ie tend to be higher in oil content. Also I don't agree on what you said about dry hopping during ferment. If you look at someone like matt from Firestone walker, they're dry hopping after primary ferment has made prolly half their attenuation at least. The advice I've heard from the best brewers out there are all saying to dry hop late in ferment. also when you talk about commercial brewers don't forget the equipment makes a difference. What applies in their brew house may not apply in my plastic bucket.

[seymour]

That's not necessarily true Seymour. Try dry hop side by side with same quantities of a low alpha and high alpha and you'll see the difference. High alpha hops tend to have more of everything, ie tend to be higher in oil content...

You make a very good point. I have dry-hopped with high-alpha varieties and lower-alpha varieties, as you've suggested. Often, but not always, it's the high-alpha varieties that have a more profound impact, it's true. But as you say, it's not the alpha acids, per se, that are causing that effect, it's stuff like Humulene, Cohumulone, Myrcene, and dozens more flavour pre-cursor compounds that don't even have such handy names yet. So, I think we're both right.

The thing is, for the last several decades, the emphasis has been on breeding only new super-high alpha acid varieties, and of those, only the ones with the very best growing habits. If, after all the years necessary to bring about those two objectives, the new hops happened to "have more of everything" which impacted aroma...well, that's great, all the better. But the emphasis among hops breeders is beginning to shift toward new varieties which have many of those interesting and unfamiliar flavour and aroma compounds, even if they don't have super-high alpha acids, and even if they aren't a perfect pleasure to grow in the field. That was the point I was trying to make, but didn't really flesh it out.

...Also I don't agree on what you said about dry hopping during ferment. If you look at someone like matt from Firestone walker, they're dry hopping after primary ferment has made prolly half their attenuation at least. The advice I've heard from the best brewers out there are all saying to dry hop late in ferment. also when you talk about commercial brewers don't forget the equipment makes a difference. What applies in their brew house may not apply in my plastic bucket.

Fair enough, but I didn't make it up. As I stated, I'm just pitching in a brand-new concept (to me anyway) which I read in For the Love of Hops. You probably recall from my numerous posts on dry-hopping threads, I have always only dry-hopped after primary fermentation, and have consistently recommended that method to others. We know it works. I'm just saying, it turns out there are other ways it can work too, with equally interesting results.

Thanks for calling me out, though, Padalac. I love reading your well-informed posts. I often come across as an arrogant-know-it-all, but I don't really mean to, and I hate when my comments shut-down the discussion. I'm just looking for a worthy advocate, someone like you who's just as passionate, well-read, and probably more experienced than I. Bring it!

Cheers,
-Seymour

[orlando]

Great thread, good discussion, points well made, courteous disagreement. It's a pleasure to read well informed posts like these.

For my part, I've hardly started with the whole dry hopping scene so have little to offer but it is apparent to me already that different hops behave slightly differently to the same treatment. Not sure that either experience or science has quite nailed down what exactly is happening with what where and when yet. This might account for how differing claims can both be "right" I was struck by the comment on how scale might impact techniques. I was with Ray Ashworth (co founder of Woodforde's) yesterday on a trip to Murphy & Son. He was relating how Wherry changed as the brewery scaled up even though the recipe remained the same. He mentioned a commercial brewer who will be giving a talk on the subject of scale at an upcoming brewing event but I wasn't paying close enough attention to relate specifically who and when, if I remember I will repost as it may be something some of you could attend.

[critch]

due to equipment and time limitations i only ever dry hop during the late stage of ferment therefore my hops are in contact in warm beer for 24-36 hrs and cooling beer for 48-72 im the low end of the industry standard.ive actually dry hopped at the start of ferment in the past but as you can guess this this approach was somewhat hit and miss! this seems a very interesting paper im printing it off to read at my leisure!

got to love the author harold wolfe for this quote alone "Lastly, thank you for being so delicious, beer! Without you I’d have to study something awful, like wine…"

[orlando]

got to love the author harold wolfe for this quote alone "Lastly, thank you for being so delicious, beer! Without you I’d have to study something awful, like wine…"

Two sides of the same coin for me