Fermentation Fridge/Freezer help

[Capdown1]

Starting my brewery build finally after years of being a poor student and landing a job during placement year. The first piece of equipment I'll be 'building' is a fermentation fridge as I live on a third floor apartment which definitely doesn't hold a stable temperature. I want to be able to log fermentation activity and have the ability to really control fermentation temperatures to 0.1C and also ramp up when required (for saisons and wheats).

To be more specific, I plan to go down the BrewPi method for controlling and logging my fermentation. My gf's dad is an electrical engineer so I'm not completely mortified about the prospect of assembling the unit. So just a few questions really:

1) My planned equipment size is 50L MT/70L HLT/70 BK. To start I'll primarily be making pale ales of 3.5-5.5% and IPAs >6%. What size fermentation vessels will I need? I need this so I can start looking at internal dimensions for prospective second hand fridges/freezers.
2) Fridges vs Freezers for fermentation vessels?
3) When looking for prospective chambers, what should I be wary for?
4) I plan to have a temperature probe going into the glass carboy through the top, and covering with fermwrap/heating belts; using this method will I be able to accurately control fermentation temperatures of two different carboys of similar fermentation temperatures if they are in the same chamber? Would it be better to get two different under the counter fridges instead of a chest freezer? Will one BrewPi control and log both carboys?
5) For people that have completed similar projects, how much time, energy and money did this take to build? I'm ideally looking at getting this sorted this month.

Any other useful information regarding this topic would be greatly appreciated, including links to 'How To Guides' and articles. As always, thanks in advance to anyone that can help point me in the right direction,share their experience and pass on their knowledge.

[Fil]

I guess your looking at a 50-60l max brewlength?? bearing in mind any volume above 20-25l starts getting into the too heavy to lift catagory so your looking at an imovable mass and unless your boil kettle is 1.5m+ above the ground your going to need a pump at some stage.

a 3rd 70l pot perhaps, or possibly easiest to accomodate 2 x 30l wine fermentors or buckets.
that way you could look at 2 x standard under the counter fridges or 1 x larder fridge. to source a fridge to house an extra large vessel could be very expensive.

and if you use 2 fridges the brewpi would be easy to mod to control 2 fridges. and extra h/w being a couple of probes.

there is also the option of nochill storage of 1/2 the brew to ferment later down the road when a small brewfridge is available..

splitting a brew has a couple of other benefits such as letting you ferment differently different yeast or temp and applying different dry hop additions. a larger brewlength generally means lots more of the same beer

imho tho a stc1000 and a usb temp data logger would however be a much easier and a lot cheaper control and logging solution to impliment. but i doubt anyone went brewpi for an easy solution

hope you post pics and details of all your progress

[Capdown1]

Hi Fil,

Thanks for the quick response. I guess that 50-60L is what I will be able to produce pale ale wise with the aforementioned ABVs? The plan for my setup is an E-Herms, so pumps are already on the list =)

I do plan to split batches to experiment with different yeast strains and dry hop additions, so two fermentation vessels is definitely the way to go. Will two 30 Litre glass carboys be ample for a brew length of 50L? To be honest my usual drinking ranges for beers usually veer into the IPA/IIPA abv category, but I just want to have enough equipment to make session pales as well. I've been looking at normal sized fridge freezers; would an STC1000 be able to control both compartments of the fridge freezer and both fermwraps/heating belts? I would imagine going by the ads on Gumtree this would be cheaper alternative than buying two separate under the counter fridges.

I've never heard of a usb temp data logger for the STC1000; can you provide me with any further information and/or links please? Do I need any further equipment, is it just a mod to the STC1000?

Many thanks again!

[scuppeteer]

If you can find a cheap larder fridge that will be your best option but avoid any with a freezer compartment. Mine is about 150cm tall and comfortably fits 2 25l fv buckets, one on top of the other. The wire shelves that came with my fridge are strong enough to hold the FV's full. Not quite ideal as they bow a bit but I will build a proper wooden frame at some point to make it more secure.
You'll need a small tube heater (45w) placed on the bottom. This is more than enough to maintain fermenting temps.

With a STC you wire in the heater and fridge mains to the unit then all you need is some reasonable 3 core cable to provide the power to the STC. Just plug in and off you go. The temp probe sits on the middle shelf of the fridge though you may have to move it for your set up to ensure its reading as you want.

There are wiring instructions on here somewhere but you can google as well.

Do make sure that any fridge you find the internal dims are wide enough for the FV's, around 43cm I think.

All in all it cost me about £100.

[Fil]

no stc1000 compatable usb data loggers that i know off . dint mean to mislead, but loads of cheap independent devices.. the cheapest less than a tenner will need to be plugged into a pc or something to read and log, but spend a fiver more and you should get one with batteries that will run n record for a few days you just plug into your puter to read and play with..

for real time and web updates tho you will need it plugged into a puter, if you have a Pi already you could use that, tho i would check the Rpi h/w compatability list before buying the cheapest ebay china logging bargain


http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... r&_sacat=0

you can add functionality to a stc1000 tho to provide more brewpi like features
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67349&hilit=hacking


i have only modded single fridges, and only 2 of em, the 2nd being a fix for the kitchen fridge, so im no great authority, but a fridge freezer with a single compressor and 2 chambers would be a real pita to mod, 2 x heating devices would mean 2 x stc1000 controllers and then there is the likely conflicts over controlling the compressor as the freezer compartment if not obstructed with chilling tube shelves will be better insulated than the fridge box..
so i would steer clear of that project, way too messy imho

[Capdown1]

Hi scuppeteer,

Thanks for the response and advice, I'm on the lookout as always. Not getting much joy from gumtree sellers though. Regarding your own chamber; I'm presuming the one on the top is pitched with a yeast that requires a higher temp that the lower one? Are you using thermowells in each of the buckets? I'm currently under the impression that fermwrap would be the way to go for a more accurate and responsive method for controlling two separate FVs in the same chamber? And I've got a good friend who is a carpenter, so I'm sure he could quickly build me some supports with some scraps if I do manage to get a larder fridge (thanks for the heads up).

And yeah, im asking for the internal dimensions and have already had to turn down an under the counter fridge

Fil, that was my bad I should have researched the topic a little more; do you think it will be possible to record the same temperature that is being read by the STC1000 probe, which will be in a thermowell in the carboy? I'm sure I could measure the temperature in the chamber, however I'm assuming that this won't be the most reliable indicator for accurate yeast activity (relatively speaking)?

I figured that a regular sized fridge freezer would be hassle, I'm kind of relieved you've completely put me off the idea. So, with current supply it's looking more like two separate undercounter fridges unless a larder becomes available; hopefully more will come up without freezer compartments!

And cheers for the links, especially the second one

And pictures there will be, with any luck the whole system will be up and running before Christmas.

[Fil]

just my take on probe placement based mainly on experiments with still water in vessels. placing the probe next or close to where change is being applied will register change more rapidly, a central probe in a thermowell where heat and cold is being applied from the outside in runs the risk of over application in either direction before any change penetrates and registers at the point the probe sits..

Now a healthy fermentation is a more dynamic liquid than still water with co2 rising and mixing the liquid as it does, but at times where yeast activity is less pronounced the comparison with still water may stand.

either way the only difference in the long run between a close to change probe and a far from change probe is the close to change probe may just effect triggering the change to get to the target in more small steps and perhaps slightly slower. But eliminates most risk of over-application of heat or cold.

sticking the probe to the fermentor wall behind a pad of insulation works for a lot of folk, and gaffer tape to seal lasts a number of brews unless you let it stick to itself

if applying temp change via an immersion coil central to the bulk then a thermowell measuring the central temp would be a better solution form my perspective.

fwiw i use a 60w tube heater in my fridge with a pcfan blowing 24/7. a fan to move the cold air about when chilling even if you use a belt or wrap for heating would be beneficial imho

[scuppeteer]

To give you hope, I missed out on 3 larder fridges before I got one.

I only use the probe which came with the STC. This is taped to the middle of the shelf holding the upper FV. It may be a bit amateur compared to some but it seems to work nicely for me. The temp difference between the lower and upper FV is rarely more then 0.5 - 1C so I find no issue in using the same yeasts for each one. Although I do often use a different one in each FV just to compare for future brews. The batch I have at the moment (same yeast) has nearly finished fermenting and the difference in FG is only 2 points. I can live with that or blend when I bottle.

[Capdown1]

Cheers Fil, really great response. I've not heard of using an immersion coil like that during fermentation, I'm guessing that you'd have a pump connected to the STC1000 which would pump cold water through to cool it down, I just don't know who I would ensure a constant supply of cold water for this to be an option whilst I'm out of the house (10-12 hours).

I like the use of a fan to circulate the air; this makes a lot of sense. I suppose I can just run this off another plug whilst I'm out, or could I connect it to the fridges power supply for ease?

Also, with the method I plan to use (probably still the thermowell and airlock through the top of a carboy), how much will this equal in space? I believe most 23/30l carboys are about 60cm, so how much extra should I account for with the thermometer and bubbler airlock when looking for prospective chambers? Is the bubbler airlock the way to go? Sorry for all these 'nooby' questions, I've got some decent books coming at the start of next week so I won't be such a burden.

[Capdown1]

And that does scuppeteer! I hope it was worth the wait though. Figured I'm actually going to need 2/3 if I want a constant supply of beer (two for fermentation if under the counter sized and one for a kegerator; I don't like the sound of bottling unless I'll be ageing for considerable amounts of time). And also, bottling sounds like too much hard work

If it works it works I had a really decent book on Yeast (White & Zainasheff) a few years ago which I lent out and never got back; reordered it again to give it another read now I've actually got the capital to fund brewing. This inspired me to become as controlled as I can afford, hence why I'm essentially doing my build backwards. I know a lot of people don't care, I suppose I'm just being a bit of a control freak.

Yeah I can't wait to start doing stuff like blending, my favourite saison of the summer was actually a blend; Siren/Prairie collab 'Ratchet'. Technically brewed a little bad (every bottle I had was over active so you had to be quick) but really was what you wanted in a nice summer saison (imo). Any one else try it? Get a bottle if you feel daring

http://www.sirencraftbrew.com/shop/inde ... 750ml.html

[Fil]

fyi use a shelf chiller with recirc pump and perhaps an inline pipe heater both governed by a stc1000 for an Immersion coil temp control solution, generally considered by those with conical or other larger fermentation vessels that cant fit inside a fridge..

fwiw a bubling airlock will not be audible from within the fridge, so a simple blow off tube or just loose cap can be used instead. i must admit to missing the reassuring glug of the airlock since popping my brews in the fridge.

[scuppeteer]

And also, bottling sounds like too much hard work

True, it can be a pain in the arse but I like the look of a full cupboard of beer. When its full (not often) there is nigh on 200 bottles in there. I also love how you can really taste how the character can change over time. On the plus side you always know how much you've got left!

[Capdown1]

Sorry about the late replies, up to my neck in work at the moment and trying to get these fridges sorted.

Fil, that sounds great. Something I'll definitely be looking into when I upgrade to bigger fermentation vessels or don't get the results I'm needing.

Ahhh ok, well that will save me a few pennies as well. Cheers for the sound advice, I've got two prospective freezers which I'm negotiating on now after a weekend of visiting recycling centres and charity home furniture shops.

Scuppeteer: I have to admit that would be an incredible feeling, especially if it was something special like an imperial stout or barley wine, although I'm sure they'd deserve a fridge (or two) of their own! And yeah, looking forward to ageing my high ABV beers and giving out as presents.

And yeah that also, unless I made my own version of the kegbot