Dark grains

[alexlark]

I've read a few articles recently which say that dark grains shouldn't be mashed for a long time as they can impart a harsh bitterness to the beer. The options around this were;

1. Add grains to mash at last 10 mins.
2. Cold steep for 24hrs and add at last 10 mins of boil.

I've 2 questions, when does the % of dark grains become an issue and anyone else do this?

Dark grains are classed as;
Chocolate malt
Black malt
Roasted (black) barley

Thanks

[Mr Squiffy]

Have you downloaded Brewdogs DIYDOG recipes?, #4 Riptide states 'add the chocolate malt at the start of run off to ensure you extract the flavour and colour without imparting too much astringency of the malt into your wort', I think I suffer from this and next time I make a dark beer I am going to try this approach.

[BrannigansLove]

This is quite an interesting discussion on the matter:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/ ... ic=25862.0

[Kyle_T]

Can't say I've ever suffered from this problem and I make pretty much dark beers exclusively. What you do need to compensate for is the bitterness when making such beers.

A good alternative are Carafa's I, II & III, these are dehusked malts made by Weyermann, I have always mashed dark grains for the full 90 minutes.

[alexlark]

Yea I got the DIY Dog I'll take a look at that now. Brannigan; I think that thread gives me more questions! Lol. I guess it all depends on style really.

[alexlark]

Kyle; yea I know what you mean. My Hobgoblin clone was a great brew, fair bit of choc malt in that. The Guinness clone was quite bitter tasting, not really sure if I overshot the IBUs, no water treatment or if is because the stuff on tap is more smooth tasting, then again it could be all that dark grain in the mash?? I'll really have to try that brew again.

[Kyle_T]

I wouldn't have thought it would be the grain. Even the simplest of Stouts will benefit from an extended period of maturation to let all the roasted flavours mellow.

[alexlark]

I left the Guinness to mellow for a few months then decided to brew a Coopers Stout kit and use it to dilute the Guinness. Ended up with 40L of something a bit more drinkable. I've still got 20L left, and that was brewed in May 2015. I'll get it in the Sankey keg in a month or 2, hoping it will have mellowed some more.

I think the Guinness was my third AG and I've definitely improved my brews since, with water treatment and accurate IBU calculations using Beersmith.

I suppose my OP on dark grains got me thinking if I could improve the Guinness further if I was to brew it again. Or improve the Hob Gob clone for that matter.

[jaroporter]

a few articles recently which say that dark grains don't need to be mashed for a long time

corrected that for them..
there's a few centuries of brewing experience that might beg to differ otherwise..

it's just different techniques for different effects. like timing hop additions in the kettle. me, i love roasty dark ales. not such a fan of liquid chocolate. just don't understand black ipas..

also, kyle's point about compensating bitterness is sound - i think good beers tend to be well balanced

[alexlark]

I guess there is more than one way of using dark grains, as you say they don't need to be mashed.

A good article I read likened dark grains to brewing coffee. They don't need to be converted, just flavour and colour extracted.

Using dark grains for colour adjustment, if you were to use 50g in a 20L DIPA would you just stick them in the full 90 min mash?

[Capped]

The one and only time I left the roast barley out til late in the mash, I ended up with a transparent stout which was meant to be as black as a blind cobbler's thumb. Nah, not for me.

[alexlark]

Yea another thing I read was less colour extraction. Not something you want to happen with a stout!

[Kyle_T]

I'm still not convinced the grains are the issue, after 55 AG, almost all of them dark, I have never had the issue as you describe it, but I pay particular attention to the balance of the beer, the more dark roasted malts I use, the more hops I use and the longer it is left to mature.

My last Porter at 6% had an IBU of 55 and it still needed a touch more!

[Piscator]

It is important to be in the right ballpark for alkalinity when mashing with a large proportion of dark grains.

Making dark milds and stouts is the only thing my water is much good for without reducing alkalinity first.

[Eric]

It is important to be in the right ballpark for alkalinity when mashing with a large proportion of dark grains.

Making dark milds and stouts is the only thing my water is much good for without reducing alkalinity first.

Your finger is on the button and other important factors too.

Keeping mineral content low in brewing liquor, that chloride should be below 100mg/l, that the main influence of sulphate is making the hops pop and that residual alkalinity theory can be extended to all water types, then it is easy to come to misleading conclusions about the effect of darker grains.

I frequently mash dark beers for 2 hours just to ensure as fuller conversion to sugars as possible. An iodine test isn't practical as in pale beers and darker grists normally have a small proportion of grains with active enzymes to do the job.